Engraver Identification

[Brad Hartliep]

Hey all. I just had an engraved 12 Gauge Winchester Model 12 brought to me. Very nice work - but not sure who the engraver is.

There is a stamped mark behind the trigger guard which appears to be "TV" with a dot above the right leg of the V - possibly a creative "TVi". Possibly Ray Viramontez - but I don't believe so...anybody know who this engraver is?

Couldn't find an engraver's mark anywhere else (gun assembled). The scrollwork is simple American style with stippling in the background. It is engraved on the left and right side and top of barrel and has wood-engraved leaf work on the buttstock and barrelstock. The left side has 2 birds and a pointer with a mountain/trees scene while the right side is 3 birds in a marsh scene. The animals are raised-relief. The gun is blued over all. There is some s-curve comma work either side of trigger guard.

The owner (not the original) states the gun was engraved in the 1950's by an aide to Lt. Col. Joe Cottle, who was stationed in Japan at the time, and presented to Cottle. Don't know the aides name. Any help would be appreciated. Will try and get some photos to upload.

 

[John B.]

Hi Brad.
Some photos will sure help in answering your question.
Just a little background on a lot of non-factory Model 12 engraving in that era.
There were hundreds of Model 12's engraved in Japan in the 50's.
Most of these were owned by service men stationed there.
There was such a demand for this type of work that a few Japanese engravers came to the US.
Some of them traveled the trap shooting circuit at the same time as your namesake and my friend, Neil Hartliep.
Both they and Neil would set up and engrave guns right there at the shoot.
Neil was also known as " The Shooters Engraver." Great gentleman and friend to many.
The back of the trigger guard on many Model 12's has some factory inspection stamps.
Are you sure that these are an engravers mark on this gun?
John B.

To Brad and others,

Our FEGA historian, Robert ( Bob ) Evans maintains a large collection of engravers names and marks.
He can be reached through the FEGA forum at www.fega.com
This may be some help to you and others. JB

 

[Brad Hartliep]

John:

I am not sure this is an engraver's mark. It's just the only mark (other than the factory marks on the barrel and frame) that I could find without disassemling the gun. It is stamped and not engraved - it could be an inspection mark. It was a very quick inspection and I could not disassemble the gun. I will try to get photos up as soon as the owner sends them to me. I am hoping he will let me take some pulls as well.

Thanks for the info on the Japanese engraving. I just figured the aide was an American Engraver who just happened to be a serviceman stationed in Japan, I didn't think of the possibility of him being Japanese. I didn't know about the Japanese engravers coming to the U.S., but I do have Neil's "Shooters Engraver" vest that he wore at the trap shoots...too bad I don't have his motorhome full of engraving equipment

 

[monk]

post a pic. ray viramontez could be ruled in or out real quick. he had a real neat style. one that was not like too many others at the time. i used to look at pics of his work till i'd nearly go crosseyed ! i never tried to copy him, i just enjoyed lookin at his work.

 

[Brad Hartliep]

Engraving

I'm still waiting for the pics. The owner said he would send me some. I'm no expert, but I don't think the work is Ray's - it doesn't look like anything of his I've seen before - it was just the only name I could think of that would use a "Vi" in his mark, but like John said, it is probably an inspector's mark. The engraver's mark may be hidden somewhere else. I will get photos as soon as possible...

 

[fegarex]

Brad,
John has pretty much nailed what I would have said about Model 12s in that era. I've seen many in my fathers shop over the years. Some were very nice, some not so nice. I have even heard the engraving done in trade for a carton of cigarettes! I would almost bet the mark on the guard is an inspectors mark as well. Photos may determine an engraver but most were done in that era about the same and never signed.

 

[Ron Smith]

Brad, There were some of these guns done by a Japanese engraver of that time. I remember a lot of the military folks were bringing them back from their tours over seas too. I can't remember the name of the Japanese engraver, however. He was known over here at one time, but I have forgotten his name. Is the work fairly heavy or is it delicate? I am not sure Bob Evans will have any information on him, but don't underestimate Bob Evans, he just might. He scratches for information every chance he gets. As John said, he would probably be your best bet, but that is what I know about a model twelve of that period unless I could see some pics. I might possibly recognize the style.
Ron S

 

[Brad Hartliep]

Ron and Rex:

I don't have the gun so will try to do this from memory...The animals are raised relief and lightly sculpted, with decent detail and of good quality...the trees, marshes, mountains, etc. in the scenes are made up of narrow cuts...for trees, there are several small, shallow lines cut across deeper, narrow lines that make up the tree trunks...the mountains are just a few simple cuts to create a ridgeline in the distance...the marshes are made of several lines of roughly the same depth, with some that are probably lighter/narrower, angled and curved to look like marsh grass along the edge of a lake...most of these lines are cut lighter then the scrolls, creating background for the animals. The scrolls are American with simple leaf designs crosshatched for shadowing and leaf texture. Flare cut also. I believe the scroll backgrounds were stippled, but not cut away. The gun was probably...75% coverage? (I still haven't figured out how to accurately determine coverage) - The back fourth of the barrel (along the top) was engraved, the receiver topstrap, left and right sideplates, and around the trigger. And probably half the wood on the barrel and buttstock. With the exception of the high-relief animals the rest of the engraving is pretty straightforward. Fairly heavy engraving, not delicate. Trapshoot style - the gun appears well-fired inside, but the outside is in good shape. I would say better-than-average quality in the engraving. Until I get some photos, that's about all I can provide...the animals are probably the most distinctive feature of the engraving. They really caught my eye. I will keep you all posted. Thanks for help.

 

[John B.]

Hi Brad.
It's sounding more and more like a typical Japanese engraving job of that period.
Just a guess till you get pictures, of course.
But what you say about it is very much in that style.
One of the engravers who came to the US was Yamaguchi, if memory serves.
Most guns were not signed by the Japanese, but Yamaguchi sometimes did.
Looking forward to a photo if you can get your hands on one.
With Rex and Ron to help us your little mystery might get solved.
They're the A team on guns.
John B.

 

[Brad Hartliep]

photos 1

Here are some photos of the gun I was telling you about:

 

[Brad Hartliep]

photos 2

and more...

 

[Brad Hartliep]

photos 3

and two more.

 

[Brad Hartliep]

photos 4

and some not so good ones that are upside down.

 

[John B.]

Hi Brad.
Thanks for posting the pictures of the Model 12.
From what I can see it looks very much like the Japanese engraved guns of that era.
Most of them that had gold inlays were done with low KT gold.
Many Japanese engraved and inlaid guns were done with silver.
As most American engravers used 24k there may be a place you could check with a touch stone.
This would not tell you the answer for sure but it would be another indication.
Lets hear from Ron & Rex with their input.
Does NOT look like the work of your Grandfather, for sure.
Best regards, John.

 

[fegarex]

I agree with John. That gun looks like many I have seen from Japan from that era. Most were in a pattern similar to the factory patterns and most of the ones I've seen were done in silver, not gold.

 

[John B.]

Thanks Rex.
Like you, I have only seen about three Japanese engraved guns with gold inlays from that era.
Quite a few had silver inlays though.
Also as you said, most were done with a modified version of the original Winchester #5 engraving pattern.
Boldly cut with quite a lot of flair in the main cuts and not much shading.
John B.