Help, please: floki66

[floki66]

I am very frustrated. I am a newbie and cannot get one person to be a salesman/women. If I go to a Chevy car lot and then a Ford car lot the salesman will tell me why their system is better, usually without being defensive or nasty towards the other brand. I am just trying to find out the difference...since I am a newbie...between GRS handpieces/systems and Steve Lindsay's handpieces/systems. Neither will "sell" me on their product. I have the funds to purchase a complete GRS system or a Steve Lindsay system but I need "unbiased" opinion. I know Steve Lindsay has a easy to use sharpening system and his handpieces do not use springs. I do not want to use foot pedals...only palm control. I love bulino art and wish to carve guns, fobs, cowboy, etc.
Can or will anyone help me?
Thanks,
floki66

 

[Sam]

GRS system: Has a mushroom knob, barrel, piston, spring, and runs on air. Also has a control unit on the bench which contains a rotary valve that delivers air pulses to the handpiece. The control unit also has adjustable stroke speed from 400-8000 SPM. With the GraverMach AT, it also features built in Airtact (palm actuation) or foot pedal operation with the flip of a switch. It's not portable.

Lindsay system: Has a mushroom knob, barrel, piston, is springless, and runs on air. No control unit as its functions are adjusted at the handpiece itself. Others will have to explain exactly how that's done (as well as other features) as I don't have one. It is portable.

One difference you will notice is that with the GRS system the strokes per minute (SPM) do not change as you step on the gas, but change on the control unit itself. Power to the handpiece changes but the SPM is constant. With the Lindsay system the SPM increase as you step on the gas. There are plenty of engravers who prefer one over the other for various reasons.

Bottom line: World class engraving as well as very poor engraving is done with each system. You are encouraged to try them both and see which one feels the best and produces the best results.

 

[Haraga.com]

If I were you I would buy them both. You won't regret it.

 

[Ray Cover]

Part of the problem is that your asking for something that doesn't exist. An unbiased opinion. Sam favors the GRS equipment I tend to favor the Lindsay equipment. I think Sam and most others would agree with me that what it really comes down to is which system you feel most comfortable using. Both are good reliable systems.

I will tell you the reasons I like the Lindsay Palm control.
-1 is simplicity. There is a small regulator one thin hose and the hand piece. That's all there is on the bench.
-2 portability, Sometimes when I go to shows or even fishing trips I take stuff to work on at the show or in the evenings on a trip. A couple paintball tanks, the handpiece, a small vise and my surgeons loupes are all I have to carry. The whole set up fits in a briefcase size pelican case. I have even worked outside at camp because no electricity is needed.
-3 You only need one handpiece. Yes Steve has a few different models but all I ever use is my classic with the palm control. It has a very wide power range on its own but if I need to go lighter I just put in an ultralight piston. If I need to go heavier I put in a tungsten piston.
-4. Maintenance is extremely easy.
-5. All adjustments are right there on the handpiece.
-6. Customer service. If anything goes awry Steve takes care of it for you pronto. Ship the thing back to him and he cleans it up tunes it up and its back in your hands in no time. Since it is such a compact unit shipping is very cheap if you do send it back for maintenance or cleaning.
-7. I personally like the intuitive feel of the way the palm control start up works over the Airtact but that is one of those biased personal feelly things.

Those are my BIASED personal reasons for preferring the Palm Control Classic Airgraver. Other guys like the other system and that's cool. Both are good systems and I would really recommend you try out both before making a decision on such and expensive set of tooling.

Part of the reason your having a hard time getting anyone to give you their biased opinion is because in the past this discussion has caused knock down drag outs on these forums. We are all friends in this engraving community but we also tend to be tool nuts and tend to be passionate about our tools and methods. So to recap, Your not going to get any such thing as an unbiased opinion when you ask people which (insert your gadget here) they like best and why. The very fact that they have a preference betrays their bias.

 

[monk]

i don't have the newer grs air powered system. i do have a gravermeister and a lindsay. i also do push and now & then h&c. all depends on what i want to do. whatever tool is in your hand, no matter the cost, the result is always "on you", not the tool. i think everyone should at least try push graving. the feel one gets from going thru the metal is nice to experience. the new "toys" don't give me that satisfaction, they just allow faster work. i will admit, the power toys are far easier to learn on and use.
i have a body tremor that just wont go away. so investing in any tool that's palm controlled i think would do me not much good. my tremor is such that i don't try doing any fine line work as you see most of us doing. those days seem over. comparing both that i have- the grs gravermeister is now maybe 35 years old- with only oil changes in the cup and cleaning the handpiece bore. have used lindsays' now maybe 4 years. never been cleaned- works good. so there you are, not much of an answer. and, no, this is not a fudge job to please anybody or any company.

 

[KCSteve]

I have both systems, but foot control since I can't afford palm control.

Quite frankly there's very little to choose between except how they feel in your hands.

The GRS system, for me works better when I want to do certain things. With my Magnum handpiece I can do deep, heavy cutting with ease - especially when I go with a slow stroke speed - it just chunks the metal out. With my Monarch handpiece I can do fine, delicate work.

The Lindsay system, for me works better when I want to do certain things. I do most of my hobo nickel work with my Lindsay, in part because it's easier to have a large number of different gravers (not that many types but quite a few sizes) when you don't need QC holders for each one. The portability means it's the one I take on trips.

But then again, when I go on a trip I don't have my microscope and all of the other great things that generally tie me to my bench anyway.

By using the tungsten piston and the stainless steel handle I can do deep, heavy cuts easily with my Lindsay. By setting it to a fine, delicate stroke and dropping the air pressure I can do fine, delicate work.

You'll really do yourself a favor if you go somewhere you can try both systems in your own hands. I know several of the people who teach have both systems so that would be yet another benefit of a class.

We're not trying to lead you on, score points or soothe egos. It's just that while the tools have their differences it's the results that matter and it's darned hard to tell whether a line was cut with GRS, Lindsay, Hammer & Chisel, or hand push. Well, deep cuts in hard metal and generally not likely to have been pushed, but other than that....

 

[JJ Roberts]

I knew that Lindsay was making Airgravers but did'nt pay much attention to them because they run with a foot control,but when I recieved a copy of the Engraver with a full page ad by Lindsay that read Palm Control no more foot pedal.Wow now you got my attention,the first thing that came to mind was the handicapped.If you can't function from waist down this is the only way go.Next Im headed for the Blade show to see Steve who I had'nt seen in 25 years and try out the Palm Control.I now teach with all Lindsay Airgravers,but encourgage all students to bring any engraving tool they feel at ease with, GRS,Lindsay,Ngraver or hammer chisel & bruin.I'll be working with the Wounded Worrior's I was offered a class room at a local gun shop with handcapped accessibility,anyone want to adopt a Wounded Worrior? J.J.Roberts

 

[Cloudy]

I have and use both systems as well- depends on what (and where) I'm working at any given time. They are both excellent machines-

 

[mdengraver]

JJ that's a good service you're doing helping the Wounded Warriors pick up a new skill!. It's a great way to show gratitude for the service and sacrifices they have made for our country!

 

[Sam]

Here are a few features I like about my GraverMach AT.

Startup is smooth and flawless making the lightest cutting and finest shading possible.

The Airtact (palm actuation) adjustments are at the top of the machine, and I can turn a knob to set the air pressure for lighter or heavier engraving. For instance, if I'm shading and only require very light cutting, I can lower the pressure which works as a power limiter. When it need more power for heavier background removal I raise the pressure and the handpiece comes alive with plenty of power. The limiting feature is also a safety feature that beginning engravers like since it can be used to prevent overpowering the handpiece.

As I said in my previous post, being able to instantly toggle from foot to palm is a godsend for my work. I do a lot of sculpting and background stippling where I hold the handpiece more like a pen and don't contact the back of the knob where the palm actuation takes place, so the foot pedal is my choice for these situations. Can I stipple or sculpt by palm actuation? Yeah, but not with the control I have with the foot pedal. Aside from stippling, using sculpting punches, or punching-in gold inlay, I use the palm for all of my work.

The foot/palm toggle also makes the transition easier for those learning to use Airtact palm actuation as toggling back to the familiarity and security of the foot pedal is instantaneous.

With the recent mods to my 901 handpiece, I'm now doing 99% of my engraving with that one handpiece. If I need more power I can use my Magnum handpiece, but that's not very often for the work I do.

For stippling I'm using the new Maestro EX. While I can stipple just fine with my 901, the Maestro EX is now my tool of choice. It's comfortable, powerful, and ideally suited for stippling. I love it. The GraverMach AT's handpiece switch means I can instantly switch between handpieces as needed.

 

[Dulltool]

I have a Gravermach and use it everyday without a single problem....... but I trully feel it's the old Ford / Chevy thing.

For what it's worth,

 

[billrice@charter.net]

Folki66

I am a firm believer in hands on test driving. There are numerous engravers who would be happy to have you come by their studio and try out one or both of the engraving systems. I have the Lindsay palm control in my studio and if you are ever in Morro Bay, CA. you would be welcome to come by and try the Palm control.

 

[Roger Bleile]

Has anyone else noticed that floki66 has not bothered to return to this site since he posted his original thread last Friday? Between all of the people who collectively spent hours sincerly answering floki66's question/comment, he has not had the courtesy to return to the site to read your answers much less thank you for your efforts. Hit and run poster...one of my pet peeves.

RB

 

[Lane]

In every forum, sometimes posters are trolls, whose sole purpose is to elicit a response. Others still log on alt accounts to ask a question, so their main account can answer their own question.

Then again, perhaps floki66 was sincere.

Lane

 

[Sam]

Roger: I noticed the same thing. floki66 joined the forum on Sept 27, 2011 and he's not returned since his post on Jan 20. :thinking:

Lane: He's the only user registered to the IP address he used when registering, and an IP lookup does show he's in Charleston, SC. At this point I have no reason to believe he's not legit.

Oh well...that's forum life.

 

[bronc]

Floki66 made one comment on his post that made no sense. He said:

"Neither will "sell" me on their product".

Well, I have yet to talk to a GRS salesman or woman who didn't bend over backwards to promote and sell their product. Just sayin....

Stewart

 

[Sam]

I agree, Stewart. That makes no sense at all.

 

[Ray Cover]

I didn't catch that the first time around but that doesn't make a lick of sense.