food for thought....
- Thread starter j.c.
- Start date
Moving the Engravers Ball Around
I don't have a positioning vise or use a lazy susan with my 19# engravers ball under the microscope. The base of my engavers ball is setting directly on a bed ball bearings which are contained in a flat pan. My vise moves smooth enough on the bearings that I can move the vise around to stay in the field of view of the microscope without having to stop cutting. There's a little more to it than throwing a hand full of bearings down and expect it to work. If any body is interested let me know
Roger Henrichs
I don't have a positioning vise or use a lazy susan with my 19# engravers ball under the microscope. The base of my engavers ball is setting directly on a bed ball bearings which are contained in a flat pan. My vise moves smooth enough on the bearings that I can move the vise around to stay in the field of view of the microscope without having to stop cutting. There's a little more to it than throwing a hand full of bearings down and expect it to work. If any body is interested let me know
Roger Henrichs
ihsfab
Elite Cafe Member
Can we see it? Can we?!? Mr. Henrichs pleeeeeeaaaaassssseeee....
AllanFink1960
Member
jc
I do see your point, and have had similar frustrations with getting just the right comfy set up...
On the other hand... I just think its the price of technology and innovation. GRS (and lindsay, and Grobet, and Pepe, and foredom, and others I am sure) are doing a lot of thinking to solve specific problems, and tho it might not seem like there is a lot of helicopter vision, I think the changes that are made are basicly good ones, overall.
Consider other technologies that have taken sharp turns. Like recorded music...glass records to vinyl, to 8-track tapes, to cassette tapes, to cds, and now to mp3 players. You cant even play records of one kind of technology on another kind of player.
Consider phone technology...party lines, to that other analog thing, to digital to fiber optic, to cell phones (now at about 99% market saturation in many countries...)again, you cant use the old stuff with the new stuff at all.
Pretty soon the normal TV signal will be shut off and you will only be able to use digital signals. Your "old tv" wont even work anymore. No one will be broadcasting that way.
Consider printing....movable lead type, moved to photo typesetting to computer typesetting to desktop publishing on computer driven lazer printers. Printing technology actually took a huge step backwards with what you cannot do with computers that you CAN do easily with film based technologies...all that cool film technology got thrown away.
Even computers...I work in the computer software business, all of which is designed to only have a relavent shelf life of 18 months before you are expected to upgrade and buy the new one that wont work with the old one. I have drawings done in drawing programs back in the early 90's that I cannot even open to look at them on recent model computers anymore, let alone print them out. It just cant be done.
So yeah, if your microscope doesnt quite match up with your last engraving block...I guess you gotta make do...I have to mess with a lot of "new" tools I buy for jewelry making to make them work the way I want anyway. Even simple things like plyers and tweezers dont really act right til you file on em and grind them to the shapes I want and stuff.
Change happens.
I do see your point, and have had similar frustrations with getting just the right comfy set up...
On the other hand... I just think its the price of technology and innovation. GRS (and lindsay, and Grobet, and Pepe, and foredom, and others I am sure) are doing a lot of thinking to solve specific problems, and tho it might not seem like there is a lot of helicopter vision, I think the changes that are made are basicly good ones, overall.
Consider other technologies that have taken sharp turns. Like recorded music...glass records to vinyl, to 8-track tapes, to cassette tapes, to cds, and now to mp3 players. You cant even play records of one kind of technology on another kind of player.
Consider phone technology...party lines, to that other analog thing, to digital to fiber optic, to cell phones (now at about 99% market saturation in many countries...)again, you cant use the old stuff with the new stuff at all.
Pretty soon the normal TV signal will be shut off and you will only be able to use digital signals. Your "old tv" wont even work anymore. No one will be broadcasting that way.
Consider printing....movable lead type, moved to photo typesetting to computer typesetting to desktop publishing on computer driven lazer printers. Printing technology actually took a huge step backwards with what you cannot do with computers that you CAN do easily with film based technologies...all that cool film technology got thrown away.
Even computers...I work in the computer software business, all of which is designed to only have a relavent shelf life of 18 months before you are expected to upgrade and buy the new one that wont work with the old one. I have drawings done in drawing programs back in the early 90's that I cannot even open to look at them on recent model computers anymore, let alone print them out. It just cant be done.
So yeah, if your microscope doesnt quite match up with your last engraving block...I guess you gotta make do...I have to mess with a lot of "new" tools I buy for jewelry making to make them work the way I want anyway. Even simple things like plyers and tweezers dont really act right til you file on em and grind them to the shapes I want and stuff.
Change happens.
Marcus Hunt
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I like your thought process JC........
Mr Ford, why did you invent another motor car? The Model T did us just fine, who needs to go over 20mph anyway? In fact the horse and cart did us perfectly adequately so who on earth needs one of those combustion engined vehicles? In fact, thinking about it, our own legs worked quite well for millenia so why learn to ride a horse?
In fact we may as well sit in our own cave and hunt only the animals in our own vicinity with stone arrowheads and spears coz after all they worked perfectly well before someone found that melting copper and tin together made bronze. Who needs that? God forbid it'll put all the flint nappers out of business! What's that? Someone found that heating some rocks made another metal flow out of them....they say it's better than bronze....it lasts longer and keeps an edge better....they call it.... I R O N....
Sorry, I'm being facetious. I agree with what you say entirely but the fact is businesses are there to sell us stuff and as soon as we have one thing they have to find the next 'better' thing to sell us. Think about it; remember the 386 computer? Dog slow, ran DOS, etc. Well, there was more computing power in that one 386 PC than all the computers NASA had to hand to put men on the moon! And what do we, the public, use computers for? In the majority of cases it's the most banal of stuff (chat rooms, games, downloading music, etc, and entertainment); hmm, great use of technology! But every week the new 'must have' comes along.
As engravers we are fairly lucky and good work can still be produced using the most rudimentry of tools. We are also lucky to have a company like GRS that listens to what engravers and jewellers want and reacts to that need. I used a Magna Block when I was an apprentice and for years after, long before microscopes were on the scene. Then some smart-ass of an engraver started using a scope and produced work that others wanted to emulate so GRS (being in business) sourced and offered high quality optics because we wanted them. Then because of the field of view problems intrinsic with scope use, the offered a solution because we wanted it. They are a business and come up with tools to make life easier for us but lets face it, they are not a charity for engravers and jewellers. Like everyone else they must make money or go under and in the case of Glendo they have 40+ employees to think about. Also worth noting (for those not in the know) GRS/Glendo do make other things not only for themselves but other businesses. Strangly, much as they like us engravers (and jewellers) they could not survive if we were their only clients. Plainly put, there aren't enough of us buying equipment often enough (it just doesn't break down that often) so really we should be saying a huge thank you to the Glasser's Snr and Jnr for the love of the art/craft they had and have and the desire to see the promotion of engraving in the world at large. After all, they don't have to do what they do but produce tools for us engravers because they have a passion.
Roger, I'd really like to see your 'ball-bearing bed' too. It sounds very interesting.
Mr Ford, why did you invent another motor car? The Model T did us just fine, who needs to go over 20mph anyway? In fact the horse and cart did us perfectly adequately so who on earth needs one of those combustion engined vehicles? In fact, thinking about it, our own legs worked quite well for millenia so why learn to ride a horse?
In fact we may as well sit in our own cave and hunt only the animals in our own vicinity with stone arrowheads and spears coz after all they worked perfectly well before someone found that melting copper and tin together made bronze. Who needs that? God forbid it'll put all the flint nappers out of business! What's that? Someone found that heating some rocks made another metal flow out of them....they say it's better than bronze....it lasts longer and keeps an edge better....they call it.... I R O N....
Sorry, I'm being facetious. I agree with what you say entirely but the fact is businesses are there to sell us stuff and as soon as we have one thing they have to find the next 'better' thing to sell us. Think about it; remember the 386 computer? Dog slow, ran DOS, etc. Well, there was more computing power in that one 386 PC than all the computers NASA had to hand to put men on the moon! And what do we, the public, use computers for? In the majority of cases it's the most banal of stuff (chat rooms, games, downloading music, etc, and entertainment); hmm, great use of technology! But every week the new 'must have' comes along.
As engravers we are fairly lucky and good work can still be produced using the most rudimentry of tools. We are also lucky to have a company like GRS that listens to what engravers and jewellers want and reacts to that need. I used a Magna Block when I was an apprentice and for years after, long before microscopes were on the scene. Then some smart-ass of an engraver started using a scope and produced work that others wanted to emulate so GRS (being in business) sourced and offered high quality optics because we wanted them. Then because of the field of view problems intrinsic with scope use, the offered a solution because we wanted it. They are a business and come up with tools to make life easier for us but lets face it, they are not a charity for engravers and jewellers. Like everyone else they must make money or go under and in the case of Glendo they have 40+ employees to think about. Also worth noting (for those not in the know) GRS/Glendo do make other things not only for themselves but other businesses. Strangly, much as they like us engravers (and jewellers) they could not survive if we were their only clients. Plainly put, there aren't enough of us buying equipment often enough (it just doesn't break down that often) so really we should be saying a huge thank you to the Glasser's Snr and Jnr for the love of the art/craft they had and have and the desire to see the promotion of engraving in the world at large. After all, they don't have to do what they do but produce tools for us engravers because they have a passion.
Roger, I'd really like to see your 'ball-bearing bed' too. It sounds very interesting.
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Andrew Biggs
Moderator
I have to agree with Marcus. At what stage do you actually say “enough†and take the product to market at a price people can afford. I’m sure anyone involved in R & D could think of a few things to make their product better………….but at what cost. Somebody somewhere has to put the brakes on and keep the cost in an affordable range. Even the word affordable is pretty subjective. For the company selling the product it’s always a really hard call to get the balance just right.
You’ve also got the problem of “one mans medicine is another mans poison†In other words, what you would think is an improvement I might hate and visa versa. The balance is a very fine one and boils down in most cases to personal preference.
Lets face it the engravers market is not the biggest in the world and we are very lucky to have at our fingertips some really fine equipment made by people that really have a personal interest and passion for engraving. Thank goodness they do!!!!
To misquote Abe Lincoln……………
You can please all of the people some of the time.
and you can please some of the people all the time,
but you can’t please all of the people all of the time.
Cheers
Andrew
You’ve also got the problem of “one mans medicine is another mans poison†In other words, what you would think is an improvement I might hate and visa versa. The balance is a very fine one and boils down in most cases to personal preference.
Lets face it the engravers market is not the biggest in the world and we are very lucky to have at our fingertips some really fine equipment made by people that really have a personal interest and passion for engraving. Thank goodness they do!!!!
To misquote Abe Lincoln……………
You can please all of the people some of the time.
and you can please some of the people all the time,
but you can’t please all of the people all of the time.
Cheers
Andrew
smays
Member
The ball-bearing fix sounds interesting. Maybe I could keep my 4 month old Magna block after all!!
details and pictures please!
Thanks,
Shawn
details and pictures please!
Thanks,
Shawn
Mike Cirelli
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
After reading this thread it reminded me of old proverb.
"A wise man changes his mind often, a fool never does."
To me these words justify a lot of things.
"A wise man changes his mind often, a fool never does."
To me these words justify a lot of things.
Marcus Hunt
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I agree JC, it's the one thing I hate about using a scope. Having recently used the turntable and ball vise method all I can say is it was fine if I was working on small, flat areas. Not so good if you have to tip the vise at any time as the depth of field is affected which is where the positioning vise comes into it's own. The only other observation I would make and that I've found to be true over the years is generally you get what you pay for. An 'inexpensive ball vise' may or may not be ok in the long run; threads wear and, for something like gun work, it might not be heavy enough. Nearly always it's a case of 'buy cheap pay twice'. These engraving tools are expensive and I agree it's very annoying when they won't work as they should but in the case of scope v vise this really is a relatively new phenomonon in the world of engraving. The only reason I've gone to the scope is for health reasons. If I could get away with still using a hand loupe then I would, but that's not to say I haven't found some advantages in using a microscope.
Here's another thought for you......
Recently I was in the market for an electric guitar. I've never owned one before so I did my research painstakingly over the months and finally settled on an American made Fender Telecaster. This time I followed my own advice as I didn't want to buy another instrument within a few months coz I wasn't happy with it. It cost quite a bit but here's the rub. With all the bits and pieces came a set of strap locks. These little bits of kit aren't really necessary but help to stop your pride and joy crashing to the floor if you prance about the stage at a gig. Fender in their wisdom give you a set of these great little accessories, gratis. The only problem is that whoever ordered them for Fender in the first place never bothered to check if they actually fit........you guessed it ........a $1200 guitar and they don't!!! So being no use at all they get binned. This means that not only the company who made them originally got paid for something that doesn't work, but another company who make aftermarket accessories gets paid by the customer for a set that do. Crazy!!! Annoying!!! Agrovating!!!! Is this how capitalism is supposed to work?
Here's another thought for you......
Recently I was in the market for an electric guitar. I've never owned one before so I did my research painstakingly over the months and finally settled on an American made Fender Telecaster. This time I followed my own advice as I didn't want to buy another instrument within a few months coz I wasn't happy with it. It cost quite a bit but here's the rub. With all the bits and pieces came a set of strap locks. These little bits of kit aren't really necessary but help to stop your pride and joy crashing to the floor if you prance about the stage at a gig. Fender in their wisdom give you a set of these great little accessories, gratis. The only problem is that whoever ordered them for Fender in the first place never bothered to check if they actually fit........you guessed it ........a $1200 guitar and they don't!!! So being no use at all they get binned. This means that not only the company who made them originally got paid for something that doesn't work, but another company who make aftermarket accessories gets paid by the customer for a set that do. Crazy!!! Annoying!!! Agrovating!!!! Is this how capitalism is supposed to work?
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AllanFink1960
Member
jc
maybe you can design it yourself and create a new product, either your own product line, or have a tool company manufacture it and market it for you. I bet you have a lot of good ideas for it, from the sound of things. Many people on here have built stuff that could be patented and manufactured. GRS started somewhere....they built stuff others werent building that solved problems...sounds like you have some good ideas.
maybe you can design it yourself and create a new product, either your own product line, or have a tool company manufacture it and market it for you. I bet you have a lot of good ideas for it, from the sound of things. Many people on here have built stuff that could be patented and manufactured. GRS started somewhere....they built stuff others werent building that solved problems...sounds like you have some good ideas.
Weldon47
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
JC,
Definitely good ideas & food for thought!
Being primarily a hammer & chisel engraver I don't use a whole lot of GRS stuff but I do use some and for the most part, find it adequate for my needs. I also understand that as engravers, there is a lot of shade-tree mechanic in us all whereby we adapt products intended for a specific purpose to fit our particular needs. I guess my thoughts are that it's nice that somebody is willing to take the initiative to r&d new products and then make them available to what has to be a micro-market. Also, I appreciate what GRS has done in terms of raising the level of awareness for the average person in regards to engraving. While I may not use all their products I believe we (engravers, devotes of the art, patrons, etc..) all benefit from their efforts. Most of us will never patent an idea but that doesn't mean that we don't come up with some good ones. I wholeheartedly encourage you to keep at the problem solving and who knows, we all might be buying your design a couple of years from now!!
all the best,
Weldon
Definitely good ideas & food for thought!
Being primarily a hammer & chisel engraver I don't use a whole lot of GRS stuff but I do use some and for the most part, find it adequate for my needs. I also understand that as engravers, there is a lot of shade-tree mechanic in us all whereby we adapt products intended for a specific purpose to fit our particular needs. I guess my thoughts are that it's nice that somebody is willing to take the initiative to r&d new products and then make them available to what has to be a micro-market. Also, I appreciate what GRS has done in terms of raising the level of awareness for the average person in regards to engraving. While I may not use all their products I believe we (engravers, devotes of the art, patrons, etc..) all benefit from their efforts. Most of us will never patent an idea but that doesn't mean that we don't come up with some good ones. I wholeheartedly encourage you to keep at the problem solving and who knows, we all might be buying your design a couple of years from now!!
all the best,
Weldon
I think many of us, (maybe including J.C ????) know that there are two new positioning in the works.
Both of these are in the design/trial stage I understand.
And both are priced much higher than the GRS combination of a positioning vise combined with a turntable.
They may be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but like all new products only time and service will tell.
I have no further information on them and happened to find them announced on another website.
I did not bookmark it and can't guide you to it. You will have to look around if you are interested.
Personally, I have very little problem or need for other holding equipment for my firearms engraving and therefore did not have a lot of interest, especially at the proposed prices.
Using the great method Tira posted yesterday of keeping things in the COR is a piece of cake for anybody with a little practice.
With three nylon slider discs added to the bottom of your vise's base ring it slides or stays easily.
These cost me $1.98 at HD or Lowes and took about no time to install.
The vise now slides easily to where I need it and then stays put until I need to find a new COR.
Minor adjustments are taken care of by the positioning feature of the vise if you have that type or by a small slide if you have the fixed rotation type.
Not much problem either way.
GRS is not one to be far behind on new or needed equipment.
A lot of world class work is being produced on their fine products and will be far into the future, I predict.
Just my thoughts, John B.
Both of these are in the design/trial stage I understand.
And both are priced much higher than the GRS combination of a positioning vise combined with a turntable.
They may be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but like all new products only time and service will tell.
I have no further information on them and happened to find them announced on another website.
I did not bookmark it and can't guide you to it. You will have to look around if you are interested.
Personally, I have very little problem or need for other holding equipment for my firearms engraving and therefore did not have a lot of interest, especially at the proposed prices.
Using the great method Tira posted yesterday of keeping things in the COR is a piece of cake for anybody with a little practice.
With three nylon slider discs added to the bottom of your vise's base ring it slides or stays easily.
These cost me $1.98 at HD or Lowes and took about no time to install.
The vise now slides easily to where I need it and then stays put until I need to find a new COR.
Minor adjustments are taken care of by the positioning feature of the vise if you have that type or by a small slide if you have the fixed rotation type.
Not much problem either way.
GRS is not one to be far behind on new or needed equipment.
A lot of world class work is being produced on their fine products and will be far into the future, I predict.
Just my thoughts, John B.
Work Centering Alternative Solution
Work centering under a microscope can be done in two ways; (1) with a centering vise which have mechanical limitations and are expensive or; (2) by moving the entire vise. Being a short person the amount of inches between the surface vise sets on and the eye pieces becomes critical when when using a .40 Barlow Lense in the scope so the device has to be a minimum vertical height or depth.
Due to the cost of a centering vice and since 99% of my engraving is done by air assist tools I decided to see if I could come up with a means of moving the entire vice for centering my work. I tried may different plastic slider pads and found them to be sticky at the wrong time if I was moving the vise and cutting at the same time. After going through the pad exercise I decided that in order to get the smoothness I wanted the vise would have to set on a ball bearing surface.
The device I created requires minimum space beneath engravers vice to function. The engravers vice base sets on a bed if ball bearings which allows the vice to move smoothly and freely and I can cut while moving the ball around. I have buffered the ball bearings so the vice moves only when pressure is applied to move it and it stops moving immediately when pressure is taken off.
Attached are some photo's of my bench which I made to engrave barreled actions and other long objects and my centering device with the dust-trash cover on and off.
Roger Henrichs
Work centering under a microscope can be done in two ways; (1) with a centering vise which have mechanical limitations and are expensive or; (2) by moving the entire vise. Being a short person the amount of inches between the surface vise sets on and the eye pieces becomes critical when when using a .40 Barlow Lense in the scope so the device has to be a minimum vertical height or depth.
Due to the cost of a centering vice and since 99% of my engraving is done by air assist tools I decided to see if I could come up with a means of moving the entire vice for centering my work. I tried may different plastic slider pads and found them to be sticky at the wrong time if I was moving the vise and cutting at the same time. After going through the pad exercise I decided that in order to get the smoothness I wanted the vise would have to set on a ball bearing surface.
The device I created requires minimum space beneath engravers vice to function. The engravers vice base sets on a bed if ball bearings which allows the vice to move smoothly and freely and I can cut while moving the ball around. I have buffered the ball bearings so the vice moves only when pressure is applied to move it and it stops moving immediately when pressure is taken off.
Attached are some photo's of my bench which I made to engrave barreled actions and other long objects and my centering device with the dust-trash cover on and off.
Roger Henrichs
Attachments
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vise1.jpg -
vise2.jpg -
vise3.jpg
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Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Hi Roger
Is the "buffer" you mention that peice of high-tech green rag?
Ingenius!!!
Cheers
Andrew
Is the "buffer" you mention that peice of high-tech green rag?
Ingenius!!!
Cheers
Andrew
ihsfab
Elite Cafe Member
Thanks Roger for the pics.
Did you use BB's or small bearings and what did you use on the base of your vice?
Did you use BB's or small bearings and what did you use on the base of your vice?
Green Rag
Hey Andrew,
No guff from down under. The green terry cloth rag as you call it may not be pretty but it sure keeps the crap out of the bearings. Every now and then I take of and shake it out or if I'm kind I even vacuum it. I tried other fabrics but the terry cloth seems to work the best. Good to know you'e still live and kicking
Kelly,
I used steel BB gun BB's for bearings. The base for the vise is a 4" plastic end cap for a irrigation pipe and a steel washer.
Roger
Hey Andrew,
No guff from down under. The green terry cloth rag as you call it may not be pretty but it sure keeps the crap out of the bearings. Every now and then I take of and shake it out or if I'm kind I even vacuum it. I tried other fabrics but the terry cloth seems to work the best. Good to know you'e still live and kicking
Kelly,
I used steel BB gun BB's for bearings. The base for the vise is a 4" plastic end cap for a irrigation pipe and a steel washer.
Roger
Hey Andrew,
No guf from down under. The green terry cloth "rag" may not look good but it sure keeps the crap out of the bearings. I take it off every now and then and shake it out. Good to here from you.
Kelly,
The bearings are steel BB gun BB's. The base is a 4" plastic irrigation pipe end cap an a steel washer.
Roger
No guf from down under. The green terry cloth "rag" may not look good but it sure keeps the crap out of the bearings. I take it off every now and then and shake it out. Good to here from you.
Kelly,
The bearings are steel BB gun BB's. The base is a 4" plastic irrigation pipe end cap an a steel washer.
Roger
Well I have had the opportunity to Test drive the Steve Shepard "Bullseye" vise prototype for a while and I do like it.
The main thing I like about it is that it has almost 6" of lateral positioning adjustment in any given direction. You can keep a double gun action centered under the vise fairly easy with it. IT also has drag adjustment on the rotation and even tilts a pretty good amount.
The drawback from my perspective was the cost. As John mentioned it is going to be an expensive vise. Steve Shepard told me that he was having a hard time finding a machine shop to make it at an affordable price. IT is the machine shop rates that is making it expensive.
It is a very good tool but not cheap.
Once he gets the final product out I will definitely buy one. I liked it enough to pay the price. But then, I make my living from my engraving and can justify the price as a professional tool (plus I can deduct the expense which helps)
Ray
The main thing I like about it is that it has almost 6" of lateral positioning adjustment in any given direction. You can keep a double gun action centered under the vise fairly easy with it. IT also has drag adjustment on the rotation and even tilts a pretty good amount.
The drawback from my perspective was the cost. As John mentioned it is going to be an expensive vise. Steve Shepard told me that he was having a hard time finding a machine shop to make it at an affordable price. IT is the machine shop rates that is making it expensive.
It is a very good tool but not cheap.
Once he gets the final product out I will definitely buy one. I liked it enough to pay the price. But then, I make my living from my engraving and can justify the price as a professional tool (plus I can deduct the expense which helps)
Ray
Ray Cover was kind enough to bring a pre-production copy of the Shepard vise to the Scott Engrave-in.
He also brought a ton of other interesting stuff for us to see.
The Shepard vise looked to be well built with lots of interesting and useful features.
It seems to offers another good solution to the scope centering problem.
I hope it can be brought to production at an affordable price. Time will tell.
Thanks for showing it to us and for the information , Ray.
John B.
He also brought a ton of other interesting stuff for us to see.
The Shepard vise looked to be well built with lots of interesting and useful features.
It seems to offers another good solution to the scope centering problem.
I hope it can be brought to production at an affordable price. Time will tell.
Thanks for showing it to us and for the information , Ray.
John B.
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Jeez! Engraving used to be rather simple.....Extremely hard to learn, but very simple. Count your blessings my friends...........You aren't having to do it the "hard" way. GRS works hard to try and accomodate your desires, and they get input from engravers, and do the best they can to solve all these problems we create for ourselves. From my observations, they have a bend over backwards attitude. Don't blame them. ...........I can't,.... cause nobody is forcing me to be an engraver, and I haven't noticed them forcing anyone to buy anything they don't want. It is my freedom and my responsibility to make careful choices, and if I don't, why would I get mad at them? Besides, the input about this issue tells me that some of these guys on this forum are brilliant at solving their own problems and inventing ways to make things work, and don't have to rely on someone doing it for them. There are simply things that the modern tools don't accomadate well, and in that case you have to use your inginuity. I have nothing against technology, but a resourceful, skilled artisan can take a few simple tools and do masterful things with them. And that is my two cents on the subject........Peace!............Ron S
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