Help, please: Graver geometry to cut in depth

[Borzzza]

I'm practicing a bit different engraving style this time (it's the main plate of watch mechanism), and I'm a bit stuck... can't figure out what kind of graver geometry I should use to engrave the part which is below main level (marked with a pensil on the photo).
I have couple of idea, would like to know if anybody has already tried them?
All my gravers are carbide, so I'm pretty sure I can't bend them.
First option I see is to grind off all the belly behind the heels and from the sides of my regular graver leaving just a tiny v-shape face on a thin "neck".
Another idea is to make mega steep heels, like 45-50 degrees and face of 60-65 degrees.
Or I should not bother and just get an hss graver, heat it and bend a bit right behind the heels to get more clearance?

Would appreciate any suggestions!

(Deepest part is 1,65 mm below the surface)

 

[JJ Roberts]

Borzza,If you had a John B mini drill graver 90 degree with a high relief angle steep heel you could engrave the parts that are below the main level. J.J.

 

[John B.]

Borzzza, I think all your ideas will work.
Give them a try and see which one works the best for you.
A fine job on the watch so far.
And a great nail polish

 

[monk]

heating and bending "right behind the heel", i think will be a disaster, concidering the problem at hand. why not create a fake plate with the required drop in depth. try your gravers and see which one works best. make a plastic casting of the area and test away.

 

[jerrywh]

View attachment 44450
View attachment 44451

I'm practicing a bit different engraving style this time (it's the main plate of watch mechanism), and I'm a bit stuck... can't figure out what kind of graver geometry I should use to engrave the part which is below main level (marked with a pensil on the photo).
I have couple of idea, would like to know if anybody has already tried them?
All my gravers are carbide, so I'm pretty sure I can't bend them.
First option I see is to grind off all the belly behind the heels and from the sides of my regular graver leaving just a tiny v-shape face on a thin "neck".
Another idea is to make mega steep heels, like 45-50 degrees and face of 60-65 degrees.
Or I should not bother and just get an hss graver, heat it and bend a bit right behind the heels to get more clearance?

Would appreciate any suggestions!

(Deepest part is 1,65 mm below the surface)

from my experience you cannot make a graver with a included angle of over 80° or it won't stay in the metal. In other words the geometry should be 30° heel and a 50° face angle. 30 + 50 = 80.
If you went to a 50 degree heel you will need a 30° face. I never tried a graver with a heel over 30°. I never saw a need for one. A 30° heel should keep you off of the other edges.

 

[Borzzza]

Borzza,If you had a John B mini drill graver 90 degree with a high relief angle steep heel you could engrave the parts that are below the main level. J.J.

I'd really appreciate if you could make a little drawing... I'm not a blondy, I promice, just English is not my native language))))

 

[Borzzza]

Borzzza, I think all your ideas will work.
Give them a try and see which one works the best for you.
A fine job on the watch so far.
And a great nail polish

Thanks! I will)

 

[SamW]

Here are some modified tools I made to engrave the guitar tuner base shown. The two on the right, made with much less lift might be an idea to think about. The six uprights on the tuner base got in the way of almost every cut I wanted to make.

 

[Borzzza]

heating and bending "right behind the heel", i think will be a disaster, concidering the problem at hand. why not create a fake plate with the required drop in depth. try your gravers and see which one works best. make a plastic casting of the area and test away.

Thanks for advise!
I will try on the area
which is blank, it should not be visible under another part on top of it.
In fact this main plate will be mostly covered by other wheels and smaller plates, I engraved it more for training than from practical point of view)

 

[Borzzza]

Here are some modified tools I made to engrave the guitar tuner base shown. The two on the right, made with much less lift might be an idea to think about. The six uprights on the tuner base got in the way of almost every cut I wanted to make. View attachment 44452

Oh thank you for sharing! I was thinking of something like that perhars the distance between the face and the curve should be a bit shorter. Will have to think about and experiment)

 

[Borzzza]

from my experience you cannot make a graver with a included angle of over 80° or it won't stay in the metal. In other words the geometry should be 30° heel and a 50° face angle. 30 + 50 = 80.
If you went to a 50 degree heel you will need a 30° face. I never tried a graver with a heel over 30°. I never saw a need for one. A 30° heel should keep you off of the other edges.

Jerry, I will try a 30 degree heel + belly removed till half of the graver, it should be enough for 1,6 mm depth. Most probably I will not be able to make my tiny swirls close to the walls though.

 

[monk]

Thanks for advise!
I will try on the area
which is blank, it should not be visible under another part on top of it.
In fact this main plate will be mostly covered by other wheels and smaller plates, I engraved it more for training than from practical point of view)

i apollogize-- forgot to mention that i liked the engraving very much.

 

[Borzzza]

i apollogize-- forgot to mention that i liked the engraving very much.

Thank you!

 

[Roger Bleile]

One of the issues you face when engraving in a depressed area, like that of the watch, is hitting the edge of the higher area with the bottom of the graver which will leave a mark. Die engravers get around this problem with what is called an engraver's ring. It is simply a small ring like a brass washer with a small handle. You hold it over the higher area as you work so that when you lower the graver to come out of the cut, the bottom of the graver hits the ring instead of the work piece.

I hope I've explained that clearly enough. Good luck.

 

[Borzzza]

One of the issues you face when engraving in a depressed area, like that of the watch, is hitting the edge of the higher area with the bottom of the graver which will leave a mark. Die engravers get around this problem with what is called an engraver's ring. It is simply a small ring like a brass washer with a small handle. You hold it over the higher area as you work so that when you lower the graver to come out of the cut, the bottom of the graver hits the ring instead of the work piece.

I hope I've explained that clearly enough. Good luck.

Thanks Roger! What a brilliant idea! How I didn't think of it myself))

 

[Stephen80]

Your first idea sounds good to me. I've been using this for setting, so it cuts softer metals but much deeper than for engraving. It's C-max carbide and hasn't chipped despite being worked pretty hard some days. It's about 4 months old. Mostly it's for tight curves, but also to get around or over obstacles. You would have to grind back further and maybe put some tape underneath for extra protection but I think it's worth a try.
Let us know what you end up doing!

 

[Borzzza]

View attachment 44460
Your first idea sounds good to me. I've been using this for setting, so it cuts softer metals but much deeper than for engraving. It's C-max carbide and hasn't chipped despite being worked pretty hard some days. It's about 4 months old. Mostly it's for tight curves, but also to get around or over obstacles. You would have to grind back further and maybe put some tape underneath for extra protection but I think it's worth a try.
Let us know what you end up doing!

I will do something like you shared, will have to make couple of test-drives)) I don't have a power hone at home, have to visit a jeweller friend and sharpen my gravers at his workshop, so it's taking time. I will for sure share results!

 

[Stephen80]

I sharpen at the bench using diamond wheels in my micromotor, looking through the microscope. If you have a micromotor or flexshaft you could cut the belly like this. I also wear a face mask so I'm not breathing the dust.

 

[Borzzza]

I sharpen at the bench using diamond wheels in my micromotor, looking through the microscope. If you have a micromotor or flexshaft you could cut the belly like this. I also wear a face mask so I'm not breathing the dust. View attachment 44462

Stephen I also use those wheels to sharpen a small belly on my regular graver, but I never made a huge belly like that yet.

This is my graver I'm working with, 80 degree with mirror polished heels.

 

[Stephen80]

Stephen I also use those wheels to sharpen a small belly on my regular graver, but I never made a huge belly like that yet.

This is my graver I'm working with, 80 degree with mirror polished heels.

View attachment 44467

View attachment 44468

That looks great, mine has too much cut away, next time I'll grind it more like yours.