Graver materials

[GTJC460]

I have alot of regular carbon steel gravers that are quite old, inherited from my grandfather. I've been using some of on my practice work. I've noticed that these carbon steel gravers hold up just fine when engraving brass, copper, silver or other soft precious metals. But when I cut my steel practice plates the edges of the graver get chewed up pretty fast. Is there anything I can do to "harden" the carbon steel to last longer on steel?

 

[mitch]

buy new hi-speed steel or other modern gravers and save yourself the brain damage. learning to engrave is hard enough without battling inferior tools. if your grandfather's gravers are in wooden handles, you can replace the gravers and still keep the nice old handles.

 

[monk]

my uninformed guess would be that they are at the maximum attainable hardness. if you know how to fiddle, there's many varieties of "junk" steel that will make useable gravers. dull sabre saw blades, for example, can be fashioned into gravers. i have a few of these i made. they work, but certainly not at the level the store bought stuff delivers. drill bits ( the back end) can make gravers for round cuts.
but as mitch mentioned, there's none better than the real ones.

 

[GTJC460]

They are mostly EC Muller brand gravers, so there's really nothing wrong with them. They perform perfectly fine for the precious metals I normally engrave in my shop. Just wondering if they can be heat treated to make harder for cutting steel.

I already have a pile of glensteel and carbide and use them without problem.

But being cheap, I like to use up stuff I have on hand.

 

[KSnyder]

you can make em' harder by heating to cherry red past magnetic, quench in light oil. they will be real hard but brittle as all get out. when they are tempered back to straw color this is the working range so actually the answer is no.
No disrespect meant but frugal is one thing, using tools not meant for the task is another. Using inferior tools is no bargain. use the Muellers for the soft stuff, use the glensteels for the other work.

 

[Kevin Scott]

Bert, I have had the same experience as you with the Muller brand. I don't think making them harder will help. They seem harder than my old Swiss carbon steel gravers that don't chip as easily. The Mullers and other old American brands seem glass hard. I have some very nice cutting mild steel but have not tried the Mullers or other old American brands with it. But on harder steel, the Mullers etc just don't work even though they work for me on gold, silver etc.
Kevin Scott

 

[tundratrekers@mtaonline.n]

Bert,have you tried putting steeper face angle,and maybe dubbing the tip?
What are you trying to cut?Sounds like mild steel? Those gravers should be fine for that.
Maybe grandpa had them at a low angle for gold work.
Tool steel should,when properly hardened,be capable of cutting the same tool steel,in its annealed state.
If it mild steel your cutting,and chewing up the graver,its either the sharpening angles,vibration,or technique in using.
All of the gravers described in James Meeks book,were of the type you speak of. mike

 

[KSnyder]

Meeks book has reference to Mo-Max cobalt too.

 

[tundratrekers@mtaonline.n]

Check them with a FINE,Sharp file.
Just use the tip,so as to not ruin a good file.
If the file doesn't bite into them they are probably nice and hard.
I assume ,when you say chewed up,you mean dented,deformed,dulled.
As opposed to chipped/broken.
Now,grandpa may have over heated them at some point,which would likely lower their hardness,thats what the file is for.
If chipping,and you are SURE its not an operator error causing the problem,they need to be re tempered,as they may be too hard.
But there are so many variables/combinations of variables that could be playing into this.:thinking:mike

 

[tundratrekers@mtaonline.n]

KS,do you know where that is in the Meek's book?mike

 

[GTJC460]

By chewed up I mean chipped. I will check with a file.

As for face angles and heels, I totally modified them to my liking and to fit in qc holders for the gravermax hand pieces.

I have experimented with several other tools and not experienced the same problem, so it may have just been that particular piece of steel.

Thanks for your help

 

[rod]

When I was young, carbon steel was about all we had, and today's steel alloys can quickly blunt hardened and tempered carbon steel.

Might I suggest keeping these old gravers as a reference for the geometries your grand father used. Before forums, when I was wandering in the wilderness, I would scour the antique shops in Glasgow, and was lucky enough to buy a box of much worn and used gravers. This was my only evidence of how to sharpen usable geometry, so I kept them unchanged, and copied the shaped on harder and tougher cutting steels. I still get pleasure looking them over now and again ... a link with the past.

Rod

 

[tundratrekers@mtaonline.n]

He's cutting mild steel.They sure should handle that! mike