Greetings from Croatia

[Pešekan]

It's a clone of the Jura Artgraver...

Yes, I realize that now, thanks.
I'm at a very early stage of getting to know hand engraving and all the different machines and styles, but i learn new things every day.

I have sent a private message to x9abm regarding some of the newer dilemmas I have, but i guess i can post them here as well, to get more mysteries solved

I know we have touched some of these topics earlier in the posts, as well as that there are similar topics all around this forum, but I just can't figure out the right information I need, and I don't want to waste my money on equipment I won't use so please bear with me


I have a few more beginner questions regarding this ArtGraver for which i would really appreciate the answers because i can't wait to get one of my own

1. Which gravers do you get with the machine? I have seen in an unpacking video that you get 2 sets of 6 gravers. Are they carbon steel or HSS? Also, can you name which ones are in the set (square, flat, round etc) so i can see if i need to order any other for my beginner testings?

2. Also, speaking of the gravers, which dimensions does this hand piece use? I'm a bit confused with all the available sizes and shapes of the gravers, so i wouldn't like to waste money on gravers that i cannot use. A link to an example graver that i can use would be great (you said it uses 4.5mm gravers?)

3. Sharpening. The most important but also the most confusing part for a beginner. Dual angle GRS is just too expensive for me, even though as far as I have researched, it is the best for getting all the various geometries
Which next cheaper tool do you suggest because I realize that sharp gravers are the No.1 aspect of this art. Lindsay templates sound interesting, but there are so many of them, i don't have a slightest clue which ones to get.
Or is there maybe some cheaper dual angle sharpener than the GRS one? Crocker sharpener? Or something like the one below, what do you suggest?



4. Sharpening stones / discs - I think there are no doubts here, for resharpening purposes 1000 and 2000 grits should be fine?

5. Ball vise - i plan to start learning engraving on zippo lighters and scrap knives. I plan to use the vise in combination with the Thermomorph plastic. Do you think 2kg ball vise will do just fine, or the bigger 10kg one is a must?

Thank you very much for the answers

 

[PS_Bond]

cousinsuk.com stock engraving tools and ship international.

As a caveat, I'd say never, ever buy from Cousins. If you hit any problems - damage in transit, for example - they will deny any responsibility for anything. Speaking as an ex-customer.

https://grseurope.com/ do GRS kit (although the prices aren't nice); Cooksongold & H S Walsh in the UK do some too, but obviously there's fun with import duty.

 

[Pešekan]

Regarding the sharpening fixture: this seems like a good alternative?

108.0US $ 20% OFF|Sharpener Angler For Engraving Machine High Speed Graver Grinding Machine - Tool Parts - AliExpress

Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com

www.aliexpress.com

 

[x9abm]

I'll do what I can with the questions - others' mileage will always be different.

The machine I have is indeed the 'same' as the Jura Artgraver. The Jura machine is no longer available. I think that that is since GRS tied up with (took over?) Jura for European business. Ottofrei.com says it might be back late 2022 and is not taking pre-orders.

Gravers - my machine came with six 2.32mm HSS gravers. 1x round blank, 1x 0.9mm flat, 1x 120 degree and 3x smaller angles (not useful for me - now reshaped). Reasonably quality but you will need more and to make your own. 2mm HSS or carbide rod is readily available on line and will serve most purposes. The Quick Change holders take 2.32mm max (2.32 is the standard for dental burrs and dremel attachments). Additional holders will be needed - make them or ottofrei or ali.

Dimensions - there are two relevant dimensions - the size of the graver itself and the size of the QC holder. For my machine the max graver size is 2.32mm diameter to fit into the QC holder. Once it is in the QC holder the holder has to fit the handpiece. My handpiece takes a 4.5mm diameter QC holder which I assume is Artgraver size. GRS size is 6.32mm (1/4" for imperial folk). The QC holder also needs to fit your sharpening system so it helps (is essential) to use the same size QC on all your kit. I am currently messed up as I have 6.32mm for handpush and sharpening and the new pneumatic is 4.5mm. So I am planning to get the lathe out and turn up a new handpiece and sharpening device and use 6.32mm only (I could have gone the other way but I have more 6.32mm QC's made up with gravers and GRS QC's come in other graver sizes, like 3mm).

Sharpening - A template system like Lindsay and others is versatile and easy to set up and use. The important geometries to be repeatable are the graver angle (90degree, 105 degree, 120 degree are popular for most work), heel angle (15degree popular, some jobs need more few need less) and the face angle (45degree popular although some materials need more). Other geometries (top and sides) can be done by eye. Getting or making a QC holder for the sharpening system maybe a challenge. I attach a pic of mine fyi - you can see that I have also adapted my wood handpush handles to take QC holders. Maybe you could modify the holder you illustrate to do the job? Shape is more important than sharp - but both are essential.

Sharpening grits - 1000 and 2000 fine for sharpening a prepared graver. For getting the initial shape (and you will always need to do this even if the graver is pre-shaped) get 120, 240, 400 etc. Not worth wasting a fine grit disc on shaping and it will take much longer, especially by hand.

Ball vice - Most people start out with a sandbag or domed block and then move onto a ball vice. If its a ball vice I think 2kg is too light, it needs a bit of mass and size. I'd go for 10kg. Mine is 135mm diameter and over 10kg - big enough but not inconvenient to put away when not in service.

Hope this of some use to you....

 

[Pešekan]

Regarding the sharpening fixture: this seems like a good alternative?

108.0US $ 20% OFF|Sharpener Angler For Engraving Machine High Speed Graver Grinding Machine - Tool Parts - AliExpress

Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com

www.aliexpress.com

Hope this of some use to you....

You have cleared a lot of my misunderstandings, thank you a lot for your time and effort!

Don't know if you have seen the dual angle I have discovered on Ali..? It seems it is made for 6.32mm holders so i should get a few of these for sharpening purposes, and then i can put gravers in 4.5 holders fo the hand piece?

1.81US $ 30% OFF|High Quality Quick Change Graver Chuck Handpiece Connector For Jewelry Pneumatic Engraving Machine - Jewelry Tools & Equipments - AliExpress

Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com

www.aliexpress.com

Regarding the sharpening stones, i'll get the whole set the, not just 1000/2000 grits.

Regarding the ball vice, I guess you are right, maybe it0s better to start with a sandbag, and when I get a hang of it, i'll invest in a bigger ball vice.

 

[Pešekan]

I know most of you are familiar with graver geometry, but this link helped me a lot to visualize all those angles!

https://grs.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/LIT-Class_Sharpening.pdf

 

[x9abm]

You have cleared a lot of my misunderstandings, thank you a lot for your time and effort!

Don't know if you have seen the dual angle I have discovered on Ali..? It seems it is made for 6.32mm holders so i should get a few of these for sharpening purposes, and then i can put gravers in 4.5 holders fo the hand piece?

1.81US $ 30% OFF|High Quality Quick Change Graver Chuck Handpiece Connector For Jewelry Pneumatic Engraving Machine - Jewelry Tools & Equipments - AliExpress

Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com

www.aliexpress.com

Regarding the sharpening stones, i'll get the whole set the, not just 1000/2000 grits.

Regarding the ball vice, I guess you are right, maybe it0s better to start with a sandbag, and when I get a hang of it, i'll invest in a bigger ball vice.

The device looks good - looks like a GRS clone It would be best to use one size of QC for the handpiece and the sharpener. It is difficult to remove and replace a graver between QC's without upsetting the alignment and having to reshape again - we are talking small degrees here! I did see one ali handpiece which looks as if it has 6,3mm QC's - search 'ABSF Graver Handle' - but the size is not stated clearly. That might be a solution.

 

[Pešekan]

Yeah, i'll see if i can find a hand piece that uses 6,32 QC's.

Last question for now (i hope): Can the dual angle be used any other way except with the 6,32 QC holder?
How is that gray part on the dual angle in which you insert the QC called in english? Maybe it can be replaced to hold the 4,5 QC,s?

 

[x9abm]

Yeah, i'll see if i can find a hand piece that uses 6,32 QC's. Last question for now (i hope): Can the dual angle be used any other way except with the 6,32 QC holder? How is that gray part on the dual angle in which you insert the QC called in english? Maybe it can be replaced to hold the 4,5 QC,s?

 

[x9abm]

That part is the sharpener head and you can see it on the GRS Apex. Modifying (re-making) it for 4.5mm is much more complicated than just getting a QC holder made up for a template type system. Also the post mounted systems are not really suitable for hand shaping/sharpening without a power hone. A template system can be used in the hand without a power hone more easily.

 

[Pešekan]

I'll see if I'll go looking for a hand piece which holds 6.32 QCs or I'll buy some main lindsay style templates with 4.5 QCs.

Anyway, you have been very helpful, along with the whole community. I really appreciate it. Just a few weeks ago, i haven't even heard of this style of engraving (i though it was all done by handpushing and hammer techniques), and now i'm about ti order my first set of tools

 

[rweigel]

Here‘s the set of sharpening templates I made myself: (left to right)

70°; 90°; 105°; 120°; flat graver, round graver

For each graver geometrie there are two templates.

The small templates are used to grind the shape onto the blank. I use 2mm round HSS blanks, of which I glue 5 pieces at once parallel onto a stiff aluminum plate with CA superglue and grind a flat of a little less than 1 mm wide onto them lengthswise on a diamond plate. This is my index for all subsequent sharpening.

The bigger templates are for grinding and honing the face and the heel(s). I cut a piece of 3mm brass tube to 22mm length, to set the graver to the correct length sticking out of both templates. My sintered ruby and diamond stones are all adjusted to 13mm height, not 1/2“ (12.7mm) as for the lindsay templates. The smaller the angle you whish to grind, the more critical the height of the stone and the length of the graver becomes. All designed wit a professional CAD system, basically by projecting the planes of the desired faces of the graver with an offset of 13 mm (stone thickness) onto a reference plane at the right distance, which is the outline of the template.

Here

is a video I made about the sharpening process. Please excuse my German…

I mainly used the 105° and the 120° templates. The 70°was almost useless, my HSS blanks are too brittle at this V angle and break too fast. I intended it for stone setting, but work there still with a hand-pushed knife graver that proved to be less prone to breaking. Stone setting cuts are in majority very curt, no heels on the gravers.

The 90° got relatively little use as well. Until I came across Sam‘s flare cutting videos, 105° and 120° where used 50/50. Since the start of flare cutting, 120° is the most used.

So I would say, start out with 105°, and once you could cut lines and curves with controlled depth and leaning, try 120°.

Feel free to contact me directly for more information about the templates and how to design them properly…

Advantages of the template system: easy to make yourself, easy to use, no power hone required. Even if the angle is not right to the last decimal place, it will be CONSISTENT. That is very import for a beginner.

Disadvantages: limited possibilities to change the angles when you wish to experiment. I thought about a template with adjustable edges for this purpose, but it would have been too difficult to adjust and too instable. Better use shims under the stone or the template. Make notes of your setup! Remember, consistency…

The angles you want might develop over time. After long time using 15° heel, 55° face on HSS gravers, I started to use now 17.5° heel 60° face first on carbide gravers AND then also on HSS gravers. Mind you, most of my work is in work-hardened Argentium Silver or stainless steel. Such a change would require different lengths settings of the graver or different shims under the template. This is much easier with a dual angle fixture.

I hope I could futher clarify matters of sharpening, not occluding them more…

Cheers

Ralf

 

[Pešekan]

Very good and helpful information!

I will contact you privately about some of your templates, thanks!

 

[Pešekan]

The small templates are used to grind the shape onto the blank. I use 2mm round HSS blanks, of which I glue 5 pieces at once parallel onto a stiff aluminum plate with CA superglue and grind a flat of a little less than 1 mm wide onto them lengthswise on a diamond plate. This is my index for all subsequent sharpening.

Which length of the HSS blanks do you get? 2 or 2,5 inch? And where do you order them from?

These seem like a good buy:

HSS Toolbits - Round Section - Metric - Arc Euro Trade

Round HSS tool bits. Metric sizes from ø2x50mm to ø10x100mm. Singles & multipacks: 3 pack: 15% off, 6 pack: 20% off

www.arceurotrade.co.uk

 

[rweigel]

Hi,

I buy HSS blanks from

https://www.zujeddeloh.de/produkte/drehen/werkzeuge/drehstaehle/hss_--509/drehstahl_rund--_4942.html

They are a little above 100 mm (4 inches) long.

Tungsten carbide blanks I got from tribo.de. They proposed

D2,00h6x330 Hm-Sorte U12 K20-K40

330mm long. I can‘t judge their quality in comparison to other carbide gravers as those are the first I ever made. The carbide polishes really well with 0.5 mikrometer diamond compound at a hard brass disc. At first their edges broke after one cm of cutting or so. Wether I cut dry or with lube (Tap Magic, kerosene or low viscosity oil) did not make a significant difference. Than I adhered to the „coarse edge finishing“ fraction, and now the edges hold up much longer. After discussing this with a machinist he came up the theory that the coarse finished edges act as chipbreakers, hence releaving tension from the edge as the chips are divided in much smaller pieces.

I cut the blank rods in ca. 5cm / 2inch long pieces, which I then glue onto a stiff aluminum plate 5 pieces parallel and grind an index flat onto them at a diamond plate.

The choice of 2mm diameter was a compromise between blank‘s cost, grinding time and stability. 2mm fits well in the 2.35mm QC holder, especiallly if one makes little sleeves for them from (DON‘T LAUGH!!) beercan sheet. When I started with 2mm blanks, GRS was introducing the 1.8mm blanks with a thicker shaft and emphasized the reduced grinding and honing time. So I thought I could not be too wrong with my choice.

Best regards,

Ralf

 

[Pešekan]

I cut the blank rods in ca. 5cm / 2inch long pieces, which I then glue onto a stiff aluminum plate 5 pieces parallel and grind an index flat onto them at a diamond plate.

The choice of 2mm diameter was a compromise between blank‘s cost, grinding time and stability. 2mm fits well in the 2.35mm QC holder, especiallly if one makes little sleeves for them from (DON‘T LAUGH!!) beercan sheet. When I started with 2mm blanks, GRS was introducing the 1.8mm blanks with a thicker shaft and emphasized the reduced grinding and honing time. So I thought I could not be too wrong with my choice.

I guess you have to take care when you cut the rods, not to overheat them?

Also, these round 2mm gravers cannot be fixed tight in 4.5mm diameter QC holders without your "beer can invention", or is it something you do just to make sure you have a tight fit?

 

[rweigel]

This HSS is not specifically sensitive against overheating. I even silver soldered pieces of it to brass supports, and they showed no significant decrease in hardness. I think this is a main property of High Speed Steel (HSS), it was developed to keep it‘s cutting edge when working steel at very high speeds, thus being heated a lot by the friction.

 

[rweigel]

One or two of the 2.35 mm QC holders could not clamp my 2mm gravers with the flat surface ground on without „beer can sleeve“. Also, their set srews were rather soft and developed deformed tips when they had to clamp HSS gravers. Both problems are solved, thanks to the beer can… The main function is better centering of the graver in the holder.

I colour code all my tools, the QC holders with nail varnish, other tools with colored self-adhesive dots.

 

[rweigel]

just another picture, to make the flat surface alonge the graver more clear… it serves as index for the sharpening templates

 

[Pešekan]

just another picture, to make the flat surface alonge the graver more clear… it serves as index for the sharpening templates

If i get it right, you have drilled through a brass bolt to make a holder for gravers, and made a thread for a fixing screw on the side of the bolt head?