Hand designed & engraved monogram, dime size

[Jim Sackett]

Merry Christmas

Its good to back at the bench. Been doing mostly machine stuff for Christmas. Any suggestions or comments on this?

Jim Sackett

 

[pilkguns]

Before I would make constructive comments, could you tell me for sure if is this a DVL or DVS or something else

 

[Jim Sackett]

Hi Scott

In monogramming the last name initial is largest in the center usually. First name left middle name right. Sooo
The monogram says dlV. Another custom is to use the first name of the Bride and first name of Groom with their last name large in the middle. Like Deloris left Larry right and their last name Voit larger in the middle.

The letter 'l' is defined by the cross over at the bottom of the letter.

Your comments are appreciated!

Jim

 

[Jim Sackett]

Unless of course you are Carson Pierrie Scott the large department store in Chicago. The you make your own rules.

Jim

 

[Mack]

Aaah yes ,and they have that right, but they are still wrong, are'nt they. And it doesn't compare to what is done here does it Jim ! And it never will. That is a beautiful monagram Jim.!

 

[pilkguns]

Jim, its good job and I am sure your customer will be pleased. However, as much as I hate to disagree, but in all my years of engraving, and doing monograms, all of the circular monograms have the middle letter representing the last name. This middle letter is alsos normally slightly larger, but may not be depending on how they 3 letters must fit together.

The letter on the left is going to be the first name initial and the letter to right is going to be the middle initial. I have never seen or heard of any exceptions to this. Of course, there are cases where the customer wants something done their way, even if its “wrong” and so be it but this is not the norm.

Notice I said circular monograms, the rules are be different for strip monograms, which are normal in the same first middle last name sequence, no matter if it is a vertical or strip monogram.

Since the last name initial is in the largest most dominate letter, it needs to be drawn into your availabe space first, and fill the space as equally as possible as the letter shape will permit. In this instance with the V, both ends of the should come fully up into their respective points, and this is missing at point 1, where you can see the line above is where that should come up to. You could still come back and correct this now, althought it will leave your horizonatal connecter a bit thick, and really the horizantaly lines as a general rule (but not always) are thin cuts only.

The forward edge of the D, between 2 and 3 should go down more towards the line I drew at 4. It makes a cleaner D and more importanly it gets the D parts from interfering with the bottom point of the more important center letter, in this case a V.

You did do well in closelining these letters. I recommend this technique rather than bright cutting letters for beginners or situations like watchbacks where you occasionaly run into hard stainlesses. Closelining the stems allows you you to add as necessary to the curves or the widths if you get off a little in your cuts, and certainly you can still correct some of this pattern now. In general the vertical lines are the wider lines and I would make several more cuts between 2 and 3 and tapering out towards 4. Likewise the portion of the V at 7 could be added to widen in that mainstem of that letter. Speaking of Mainstems, they should be the dominant part of each letter. This means that they should be the widest portions of the letter, not the accents or flourish cuts of the letter. Notice that downward flourish at the top of the V between the 5and 6 is wider than the Mainstems of the V. The V flourish to the right of the 2 is much more in the correct proportion to the mainstem.

The S needs a bit more of an S shape, and should be brought out more like drawn at 8. Also the vertical portion of the S really should be thin stroke, espcially as it crosses the V, the main letter. In general the background space should remain equal throughout the pattern as much as possible, and it is really quite crowded with vertical stems or flourishes in the area where the 5-6. Of course per my first comment, if the V flourish was up where it is on the otherside, then this problem would be taken care of.

I hope this helpful, take care and keep up the good work,
Scott

 

[Christopher Malouf]

Another custom is to use the first name of the Bride and first name of Groom with their last name large in the middle. Like Deloris left Larry right and their last name Voit larger in the middle.


Jim

You are exactly right Jim. This is called a "family" monogram and it is a traditionally accepted custom. Though not seen much today, it's common on antique silver sets.

 

[pilkguns]

Interesting Chris (and Jim!) , I have never heard this. Thats what so cool about this forum, is the tidbits you learn here. Do you know know more about this tradition, where it was used and how? Any references you can give me? I sure need to include it in my writings

And in re-reading the post above, I see I am still confused about the S or the L. since I guess its an L now
, obviosly the curve at 8 does not now need moved to the right, if anything it needs moved to the left LOL. anyway, the leg of the L that now goes upward, really should be a bit more down to give the "straight" look. I think it should end approximately in the same area as in the opposite side of the D where the lower thinline loops before going upward to from the back mainstem of the D.

 

[Jim Sackett]

Thanks Chris, Scott & Mack

I will use your suggestions in my re-do. My guess about the bride, groom & their last name may have come from the needlwork crafts. I'm not sure.

Jim

 

[Christopher Malouf]

There is little or no information on monogram/cipher guidelines in engraving books except on technique in how to cut them. Google might be a bit more accommodating if you need more convincing evidence.

Since it's not in an engraving book doesn't mean it isn't true. I suppose the old books on "ciphers" make the assumption that you know the rules and etiquette . This was handed down to me from an old timer - a retired Boston jeweler, who lives here in West Virginia. (notorized cover letter and resume available upon request ).

I've worked on wedding silverware sets. The contemporary family monogram that goes on the chest (the case that is) is generally her first initial on the left, his first initial on the right and the last name initial in the middle. Historically ... on older sets .... 19th century and such, his first initial is always on the left.

Don't second guess yourself regarding letter placement Jim but follow Scott's excellent advice for your re-do. Use a compass to draw your circle or make an ellipse and lay out your letters using different colored pencils.

Chris

 

[KCSteve]

Since you guys are discussing monogram layout, anyone have any knowledge of the rules for folks like me with four initials? Having a two word last name means my initials are 'SLVD'.

My ever-indulgent wife is from Taiwan and normally doesn't use a middle initial. When we were first married she worked in insurance and had some problems with people skipping premiums because they had been initials 'WVD' and they thought that meant they were waived. Technically, legally speaking, if we go with her name as on her Citizenship papers she has six initials 'WKWIVD' because she used her Chinese name as her middle name.

Just curiosity on my part - if there's enough interest in this stuff we should probably start a new thread on 'Monogram layout rules' rather than hijack Jim's.

 

[Christopher Malouf]

I've never seen a four or more letter monogram Steve. I would say pick the three letters you like the most.

One rule is that the monogram should be readable. Even ornamental ciphers should be. More than three letters and it definitely won't be.

I'm not trying to hijack Jim's thread and I've said all I can say on this subject anyway.

 

[pilkguns]

when I have seen or done a 4th letter in a circular monogram, it has been much smaller under the center letter, which ends up being smaller too to accomdate the 4th. Although as I type this, I sort of think I can see two letters bunched together on the left side somewhere... boy I wish I had time to sort through all the engraving pictures I have taken at museums across the world and get them sorted and on-line.

Steve you are on your own for six letters. LOL

 

[Jim Sackett]

re-worked on computer

I'll try this today on my re-do

 

[Jim Sackett]

About 4 letter monograms!

I've been playing around with these for 3 or 4 years. It's for a family reunion that showes 4 generations, the large 'V' in the center being the last or current generation.

Jim

 

[KCSteve]

Thanks guys!

Jim

I like today's version of your 'DLV' monogram - much easier to read this way.

I'll have to ask Daniel over on the Lindsay forum. Since he's in the Netherlands he's sure to have run into the problem - 'Van Dyke' is a pretty common Dutch name.

The ever-indulgent wife is pretty unique. In fact, according to the http://www.howmanyofme.com website she's the only one with her name in the U.S. (at least according to the 1990 Census and estimates based on it).

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Since we are discussing monograms/ciphers and their rules I dusted off my old trusted 1906 edition of "The complete Book Of Monograms & Ciphers" by A. A. Turbayne.

Turbayne states that the difference between a cipher and a monogram is .........

"A monogram is a combination of two or more letters, in which one letter forms part of another and cannot be sperated from the whole."

"A cipher is merely an interlacing or placing together of two or more letters, being in no way dependant for their parts on other of the letters"

Another piece of interesting information to add to the brain box!!

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Daniel Houwer]

The only and most perfect four letter monogram comes from Jrr Tolkien.
http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/translations/dutch/images/A12djfr.jpg
Whenn I was still in school a friend asked me to make a pendant with this monogram.
I could have sold them by the gross but thought there should be something as copyright on them.
Still have a few I think. Made 6 in total filled with enamel.

The other 4 letter monograms were church related like INRI and a few others I can't think of right now.
Maybe they don't coun as monograms anyway.

 

[Ron Smith]

Last name initial always goes in the middle except for the running monograms or drop monograms providing it is designed in a circle or oval space. The sir name is the ultimate important initial with the others being secondary, it is good to make the last name initial more promenent.

I have run into customer confusion with "book" letters, so I designed them where they cannot be mistaken as in the "S: and the "L". The "T" is sometimes confusing in a monogram. I re-design them so that they are not easily mistaken. This is why desgning is so important. It is important to please the customer and the book lettering should be secondary in the case of monograms. Rather than be embarrased by the repromands of the customer, it is better in this case if your your monograms are readable and unmistakable. This depends somewhat on the letters in the monogram and each letter has it's own peculiarities. These things have to be allowed for in deciding what type of monogram you should use. This is the expertise of the engraver, and this should be settled at the time of commission. If the customer wants to have his way, then he has been warned, and it gives you an outlet.................There are always those who think they know how you should do your job....Tell them the truth and then let them make the decision. Then it is their fault..................make them sign it.

Now a story:

I had a customer that insisted that he wanted all letters capital in a Old english letter style. I told him he wouldn't like it, but he insisted, and so I did it his way..................... ( I always made them sign or initial, after I got smart, what had been agreed upon so that there was no misunderstanding)

I was right, he didn't like it. When he complained, I told him I told you so, and it was his responsibility. I would do it over at his expense. That didn't make him very happy, but he left me with the responsibility of doing it the way it would look best and be readable.............Thank God for a little experience, because customers will sometimes try and stick you with the mistake. That isn't going to happen with me if I have done my diligent best to get it right..............People will test your boundaries, but I made record keeping such that they couldn't back out on what they had said and what they agreed upon.

If I wasn't sure it was my fault, (not very often) I gave them the benifit of the doubt and took the hit myself.

I believe in justice!!!!!!!

My two cents on the subject........................

Ron S