ihsfab
Elite Cafe Member
I was wanting to get the opinions of the one's that tried the airtact at Reno before I make a decsion on a new system. Thanks I'm not posting this to start a fight or anything I like to see all sides (likes or dislikes)
Info about Airtact
- Thread starter ihsfab
- Start date
Here are my opinions
This is a copy of what I posted over on the Lindsay Forum it is my opinions and should be used as that I hope it helps.
First I would like to thank the organizers of this show the tables were close enough that the trips back and forth were not too tiring for a semi old guy that was real plus.
I actually tried the GRS unit first as there was a crowd at the Lindsay table. I was amazed to see they had even developed a palm control at all as I thought it was a patented unit to Lindsay Engraving. I took a seat and gave the GRS unit a test drive. I placed the graver to the plate and started to push, I had a hard time finding the sweet spot or the place on the handle that actually made something happen, then I pushed a little harder and the unit jumped to a start and I mean jumped. After I got it under some control the cutting seemed to be OK. I did notice what I will call a control lag as there was a delay in my request for power and when the power was actually delivered, at this time I assumed it had something to do with all of the tubing running about, there seemed to be plenty of it on the table.
Next I went to the Lindsay Display to test drive a PalmControl, I own a foot control classic now, I took the tool in my hand and it felt as though it belonged there. I got the scope in focus and touched the graver to the plate to give it a try. The tool felt like an extension of my hand responding to my slightest touch. WOW what tool control, what a tool. I cut a scroll and some lettering that was already layed out on the plate. Every touch every command was instantly reflected in the tool operation it was nice.
I made the trip back to the GRS table with some questions on the control of the tool and was told I needed to tune the machines (plural) to my own liking or needs. I tried the tool again and tried to adjust to what I wanted with not too much luck. I made the trip back and forth a few more times liking the Lindsay more and more.
It was then that it dawned on me why the control was so different. All and I mean all of the control for the Lindsay is in the handle right there where the work is done one very short piece of tubing between the tool and the control.On the GRS palm unit there is a valve on the handle leading to the Airtact unit, which is in the place of the foot control, and the Airtact unit is connected to the gravermax which is then connected back to the handpiece. That is at least 3 different units all having to wait on the other to get this thing going and all can and need to be adjusted. Not to mention the amount of airlines and the amount of air, which no one at GRS seemed to know how much it needed in CFM, and the different handpieces.
With the Lindsay it is all in the palm of my hand all the power and control in one place and one compact powerful machine. I only wish I had all of the talent to make the best of it.
In conclusion it is my opinion after trying both that the Lindsay PalmControl is and will be my choice for these reasons.
1. Overall feel and appearance
2. Full range of power in 1 handpiece
3. Fully self contained no control boxes needed
4. Very portable (very important for shows)
5. No table full of controllers all adjustments on the unit
6. It just works better for me
If any of you are waiting on this GRS unit don't just get the best now and go with the Lindsay. I am sure you will be happier in the long run also I understand that the GRS units will not be available for 2 to 4 months. I also understand many of the GRS instructors, their own cream of the crop, have not even had the chance to test this, I wonder who did an engineer or an engraver???? I called GRS for information and was amazed to find that the reps were not even sure if the unit required electricity or not and the air CFM question really had them puzzled. It seems that the only units at this time are prototypes.
Again I hope this does not start a problem here but we are supposed to share ideas and opinions in a constructive manner and that is my intent. I do not want a war of any kind here I enjoy all of the engraving forums a request for opinions was made and I have offered mine if yours is different express it but do not start a problem here PLEASE.
Tom White
This is a copy of what I posted over on the Lindsay Forum it is my opinions and should be used as that I hope it helps.
First I would like to thank the organizers of this show the tables were close enough that the trips back and forth were not too tiring for a semi old guy that was real plus.
I actually tried the GRS unit first as there was a crowd at the Lindsay table. I was amazed to see they had even developed a palm control at all as I thought it was a patented unit to Lindsay Engraving. I took a seat and gave the GRS unit a test drive. I placed the graver to the plate and started to push, I had a hard time finding the sweet spot or the place on the handle that actually made something happen, then I pushed a little harder and the unit jumped to a start and I mean jumped. After I got it under some control the cutting seemed to be OK. I did notice what I will call a control lag as there was a delay in my request for power and when the power was actually delivered, at this time I assumed it had something to do with all of the tubing running about, there seemed to be plenty of it on the table.
Next I went to the Lindsay Display to test drive a PalmControl, I own a foot control classic now, I took the tool in my hand and it felt as though it belonged there. I got the scope in focus and touched the graver to the plate to give it a try. The tool felt like an extension of my hand responding to my slightest touch. WOW what tool control, what a tool. I cut a scroll and some lettering that was already layed out on the plate. Every touch every command was instantly reflected in the tool operation it was nice.
I made the trip back to the GRS table with some questions on the control of the tool and was told I needed to tune the machines (plural) to my own liking or needs. I tried the tool again and tried to adjust to what I wanted with not too much luck. I made the trip back and forth a few more times liking the Lindsay more and more.
It was then that it dawned on me why the control was so different. All and I mean all of the control for the Lindsay is in the handle right there where the work is done one very short piece of tubing between the tool and the control.On the GRS palm unit there is a valve on the handle leading to the Airtact unit, which is in the place of the foot control, and the Airtact unit is connected to the gravermax which is then connected back to the handpiece. That is at least 3 different units all having to wait on the other to get this thing going and all can and need to be adjusted. Not to mention the amount of airlines and the amount of air, which no one at GRS seemed to know how much it needed in CFM, and the different handpieces.
With the Lindsay it is all in the palm of my hand all the power and control in one place and one compact powerful machine. I only wish I had all of the talent to make the best of it.
In conclusion it is my opinion after trying both that the Lindsay PalmControl is and will be my choice for these reasons.
1. Overall feel and appearance 2. Full range of power in 1 handpiece 3. Fully self contained no control boxes needed 4. Very portable (very important for shows)5. No table full of controllers all adjustments on the unit
6. It just works better for me
If any of you are waiting on this GRS unit don't just get the best now and go with the Lindsay. I am sure you will be happier in the long run also I understand that the GRS units will not be available for 2 to 4 months. I also understand many of the GRS instructors, their own cream of the crop, have not even had the chance to test this, I wonder who did an engineer or an engraver???? I called GRS for information and was amazed to find that the reps were not even sure if the unit required electricity or not and the air CFM question really had them puzzled. It seems that the only units at this time are prototypes.
Again I hope this does not start a problem here but we are supposed to share ideas and opinions in a constructive manner and that is my intent. I do not want a war of any kind here I enjoy all of the engraving forums a request for opinions was made and I have offered mine if yours is different express it but do not start a problem here PLEASE.
Tom White
ihsfab
Elite Cafe Member
Tom, Thank you very much for your opinion this is the kind of thing I am looking for. Anybody else try the Airtact?
Tom: Thanks for taking the time to share your experience with Cafe members. Your point #6 says it all. If one unit works better for you, then that's the one you should buy, use, and enjoy. At the end of the day, the quality of work you've produced is what's most important, not the name on the tool.
To address a couple of your comments, the Airtact was rigorously tested for many hundreds of hours by engravers during its development. It performs beautifully and elegantly and offers the superb control that its testers demanded. Airtact was designed to allow all Gravermax, Gravermach, and Gravermate users a new user-configurable way to engrave.
You are correct in that Airtact is not ready to ship, and many of us are not completely familiar with all of its features.
You really don't have to worry about a war or fight in the Cafe. We simply don't do that here. Again, thanks for taking the time to help other Cafe members.
Cheers / ~Sam
To address a couple of your comments, the Airtact was rigorously tested for many hundreds of hours by engravers during its development. It performs beautifully and elegantly and offers the superb control that its testers demanded. Airtact was designed to allow all Gravermax, Gravermach, and Gravermate users a new user-configurable way to engrave.
You are correct in that Airtact is not ready to ship, and many of us are not completely familiar with all of its features.
You really don't have to worry about a war or fight in the Cafe. We simply don't do that here. Again, thanks for taking the time to help other Cafe members.
Cheers / ~Sam
ihsfab
Elite Cafe Member
Thank's Sam
Tim Wells
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I put a blurb about it on here somewhere but I'll be brief here. I tried it out but only the palm actuated option and not the finger type although I did put my finger on it to see what would happen and it took right off laying on the table and was very responsive, I wish I'd tried to cut with it.
The reason for all that hose is due to having multiple handpieces hooked up to the same box for demo purposes, I don't think you'd have that tangled medusa that way on your bench at home. One has to consider that a lot of people handled those things and just laid them down wherever.
A given feature on brand X may be not to your liking, then the next guy may take that same feature and consider it to be advantageous to him. Thusly, a person really needs to try out the tools they're considering as they are all a significant monetary investment regardless of manufacturer. Don't haul off and buy something like that based solely on others opinions. That's my opinion.
The reason for all that hose is due to having multiple handpieces hooked up to the same box for demo purposes, I don't think you'd have that tangled medusa that way on your bench at home. One has to consider that a lot of people handled those things and just laid them down wherever.
A given feature on brand X may be not to your liking, then the next guy may take that same feature and consider it to be advantageous to him. Thusly, a person really needs to try out the tools they're considering as they are all a significant monetary investment regardless of manufacturer. Don't haul off and buy something like that based solely on others opinions. That's my opinion.
ihsfab
Elite Cafe Member
There is noway that I could buy a LPC I don't have type of cash flow. I'm just wanting to know what you all thought of the new stuff.
Marcus Hunt
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Ok, I'll put my two-penny worth into the debate.
Whilst in Emporia for the engravers' convention weekend at the Grand Master's Program last year, my father and I had the opportunity to talk to D J Glasser without any interuptions. As full time engravers we described exactly to him what in our minds would make the GraverMax (dad) and GraverMach (myself) better machines. For us who were brought up for many, many years as hand engravers (either pushing or using hammer and chisel) the only real weak point (this is debatable also I know) is the foot pedal. It's the part of the system that leaves the engraver slightly divorced from his work. Mr Glasser listened to us.
When engraving scrollwork on gun actions quite often using a microscope is just too time consuming when trying to work commercially. So I go back to using the optivizor which means I have to get closer to the work and this often means dropping my chair height. Using the pedal literally can become 'a pain in the butt' after a few hours because it's not positioned for optimum comfort as it is when using the 'scope. To have a totally hand controlled tool would be a fantastic advantage for the engraver (as Steve Lindsay has found). However, what we asked DJ for (and what he came up with) was a system that when the engraver was cutting in the English/European style we could come off the air and finish the cut as engravers have done for centuries. This involves almost a plunge and flick action to release the bur. This way the engraver maintains the wonderful cuts that have been used throughout history. It can be done using the foot pedal but its not natural as English small scroll was cut at high speed - literally a click a second! Now Airtact, from what I've heard about it, does enable the engraver to do this. From what I see that has been cut by Palm Control the end cuts look as if they've been scoop cut because any extra pressure on the handle will cause the thing to accelerate.
Apparently there is extra tubing but this can be taped to the existing tube so as not to be an inconvenience and to keep it under control. I've not used Airtact yet but like most things it'll probably take a bit of getting used to. The other main advantage it has is that it can be used with existing GRS tooling and it costs a quarter of the Lindsay Palm Control system; plus, some of us don't want to retool entirely. For me the GRS system works in that I like the way I can control exactly how many SPM I'm using and I can use that range from very fine cuts to very hard hammer action. I like the way it doesn't speed up if I have to use a bit more oomph on a cut because there's a tough spot - the stroke length remains the same. Yes, it needs electricity and space on the bench but this is a small pay off compared with the control element it provides. Airtact looks like it will provide all the previous advantages of the GRS system but with hand control added as a bonus.But, as has been pointed out time and time again on these forums. It's up to what the individual likes and what works for them. Evangelism has no place here because tools are just tools. I, for one, am looking forward to trying Airtact out when it becomes available.
Sam said it before , and I'll say it again it's not what you use but how you use it that counts.
Whilst in Emporia for the engravers' convention weekend at the Grand Master's Program last year, my father and I had the opportunity to talk to D J Glasser without any interuptions. As full time engravers we described exactly to him what in our minds would make the GraverMax (dad) and GraverMach (myself) better machines. For us who were brought up for many, many years as hand engravers (either pushing or using hammer and chisel) the only real weak point (this is debatable also I know) is the foot pedal. It's the part of the system that leaves the engraver slightly divorced from his work. Mr Glasser listened to us.
When engraving scrollwork on gun actions quite often using a microscope is just too time consuming when trying to work commercially. So I go back to using the optivizor which means I have to get closer to the work and this often means dropping my chair height. Using the pedal literally can become 'a pain in the butt' after a few hours because it's not positioned for optimum comfort as it is when using the 'scope. To have a totally hand controlled tool would be a fantastic advantage for the engraver (as Steve Lindsay has found). However, what we asked DJ for (and what he came up with) was a system that when the engraver was cutting in the English/European style we could come off the air and finish the cut as engravers have done for centuries. This involves almost a plunge and flick action to release the bur. This way the engraver maintains the wonderful cuts that have been used throughout history. It can be done using the foot pedal but its not natural as English small scroll was cut at high speed - literally a click a second! Now Airtact, from what I've heard about it, does enable the engraver to do this. From what I see that has been cut by Palm Control the end cuts look as if they've been scoop cut because any extra pressure on the handle will cause the thing to accelerate.
Apparently there is extra tubing but this can be taped to the existing tube so as not to be an inconvenience and to keep it under control. I've not used Airtact yet but like most things it'll probably take a bit of getting used to. The other main advantage it has is that it can be used with existing GRS tooling and it costs a quarter of the Lindsay Palm Control system; plus, some of us don't want to retool entirely. For me the GRS system works in that I like the way I can control exactly how many SPM I'm using and I can use that range from very fine cuts to very hard hammer action. I like the way it doesn't speed up if I have to use a bit more oomph on a cut because there's a tough spot - the stroke length remains the same. Yes, it needs electricity and space on the bench but this is a small pay off compared with the control element it provides. Airtact looks like it will provide all the previous advantages of the GRS system but with hand control added as a bonus.But, as has been pointed out time and time again on these forums. It's up to what the individual likes and what works for them. Evangelism has no place here because tools are just tools. I, for one, am looking forward to trying Airtact out when it becomes available.
Sam said it before , and I'll say it again it's not what you use but how you use it that counts.
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Thanks Marcus. You presented a view that has up til now been forgotten. That is the part where you exit the cut.
I listened to a fellow engraver expand on the qualities of his new Lindsey tool while standing in front of the Lindsey table at the show. More positive comments could not be said. I listened throughout his pitch. I then said will you sell me your grs system. He said no. I still use it.
I guess both tools have their good features.
I listened to a fellow engraver expand on the qualities of his new Lindsey tool while standing in front of the Lindsey table at the show. More positive comments could not be said. I listened throughout his pitch. I then said will you sell me your grs system. He said no. I still use it.
I guess both tools have their good features.
Marcus,
I guess I don't understand what you mean by ending the cut in an English/European fashion.
I pop my chips out at the end of the cut with the palm control. I get nice squared cuts that just stop not taper out. Are you trying to put a ball on the end of your cut or just stop it and square it off by popping the chip out at the end?
Can you elaborate on this and post a close up pic of the end of a cut that your referring to?
Ray
I guess I don't understand what you mean by ending the cut in an English/European fashion.
I pop my chips out at the end of the cut with the palm control. I get nice squared cuts that just stop not taper out. Are you trying to put a ball on the end of your cut or just stop it and square it off by popping the chip out at the end?
Can you elaborate on this and post a close up pic of the end of a cut that your referring to?
Ray
Marcus Hunt
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Hi Ray,
I wish I was more computer literate so I knew how to label pictures so I could point to what I mean. Unfortunately I haven't done any small scroll guns for ages so I don't have any digital pictures to show. I've ordinary photos but no scanner which is annoying because it would show what I mean instantly.
I describe it as English/European cutting but what I really mean is pre air-assist. You know what I mean, it's the most basic of cuts - the tear-drop. In order to correctly achieve it, one enters the cut and pushes gently and gradually increases the pressure. As you know this makes the graver dive deeper. If the graver's correctly set up (and that means grinding a lot of the back off of it so it tapers finely) when you get to the end of the cut the pressure on the graver is at maximum and throwing up a bur in frontif you keep the pressure on an drop the heel of the palm downwards the graver point lifts suddenly and releases the bur with an audible 'click!' forming a tear drop shape. No square ends and it isn't a scooping action either. The tapered graver literally springs the bur from the cut.
The picture below is part of an English large scroll gun. The tear drop forms most of the inside and outside work. It can be seen most clearly as the speck between the little scrolls that form the border.
I wish I was more computer literate so I knew how to label pictures so I could point to what I mean. Unfortunately I haven't done any small scroll guns for ages so I don't have any digital pictures to show. I've ordinary photos but no scanner which is annoying because it would show what I mean instantly.
I describe it as English/European cutting but what I really mean is pre air-assist. You know what I mean, it's the most basic of cuts - the tear-drop. In order to correctly achieve it, one enters the cut and pushes gently and gradually increases the pressure. As you know this makes the graver dive deeper. If the graver's correctly set up (and that means grinding a lot of the back off of it so it tapers finely) when you get to the end of the cut the pressure on the graver is at maximum and throwing up a bur in frontif you keep the pressure on an drop the heel of the palm downwards the graver point lifts suddenly and releases the bur with an audible 'click!' forming a tear drop shape. No square ends and it isn't a scooping action either. The tapered graver literally springs the bur from the cut.
The picture below is part of an English large scroll gun. The tear drop forms most of the inside and outside work. It can be seen most clearly as the speck between the little scrolls that form the border.
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Yves Halliburton
Elite Cafe Member
Marcus, I to use an optivisor at times and solved the same issue by going to the drill press stand. Now I can move the work higher to my eyes in leu of lowering the chair. My chair is always at the same height.
ihsfab
Elite Cafe Member
Thank's everybody for your thoughts.
ihsfab
Elite Cafe Member
Hi all I Thank you for all of your comments. I would like to say something about all of this. I wanted to know what was thought about the airtact from the people that tried it at Reno or anywhere else for that matter. I know about the Palmgraver by Lindsay and I think that it is a wonderful tool. I know that a lot of you use the tools from Lindsay, some from Gsr, some from Ngraver, some use no power tools at all, but you all make some very beautiful art work with what you have.
I’m just a new guy starting out I’m trying to learn as much as I can, I don’t like making mistakes. I know we all do make them, but in what I did for so many years as a mechanic if you made a major mistake it cost you as well as the customer. So you learned as much as you could as fast as you could so you could stay on top of the game. That kind thinking is hard to stop. I haven’t been able to work since last July so I am trying to find something to do with my hands and my mind.
I am a biker and this thread is starting to look like a conversation between a hard core Harley Freaker and the type of biker I am I don’t care what you ride as long as you enjoy riding, and having the wind in you face.
Being a mechanic you learn to hear what people say weather you agree or disagree. That way you can open your mouth and ask the right questions at the right time.
I’m just a new guy starting out I’m trying to learn as much as I can, I don’t like making mistakes. I know we all do make them, but in what I did for so many years as a mechanic if you made a major mistake it cost you as well as the customer. So you learned as much as you could as fast as you could so you could stay on top of the game. That kind thinking is hard to stop. I haven’t been able to work since last July so I am trying to find something to do with my hands and my mind.
I am a biker and this thread is starting to look like a conversation between a hard core Harley Freaker and the type of biker I am I don’t care what you ride as long as you enjoy riding, and having the wind in you face.
Being a mechanic you learn to hear what people say weather you agree or disagree. That way you can open your mouth and ask the right questions at the right time.
Barry Lee Hands
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Hello to my friends Sam and Marcus, and all the members.
I was at the show in Reno and visited with my friends from GRS and met Mr. Lindsay and tried both the Airtact and the Lindsay palm control.
Mr. Lindsay described the operation of the palm control as something like this: The length of stroke adjustment ring sets the stroke so that in its short stroke setting it moves the anvil closer to the piston, which gives shorter soft strokes and lightens the impact. Or you can set it to a long stroke and have greater impact, which lowers the speed. Of course the power can be adjusted, as in the airflow, by the pressure of the palm against the back of the tool. He asserts that because of this adjustability it is like having" 5 handpieces in one"
I own a gravermax and three handpieces and they all function well. With the foot control one has the option of increasing or decreasing power at any time through the pedal. This does eliminate any tendency to "Scoop" when "flicking" out of the work.
I, like Marcus, learned to use pushgravers early in my career, and am used to "flicking" out of the end of the cut.
When I tried the palm control in Reno I found it to be very comfortable to use. Immediately I was cutting with ease, and carrying on in conversation as I cut, about the operation of the palm control. When Mr Lindsay asked me what I thought about it, I said “I am just thinking if I should use cash or credit card" and filled out an order form on the spot.
I did notice when I cut small scroll that I had to "cut my way out" as opposed to "flicking" my way out, by lowering the aspect of the tool and lightening my palm pressure at the end of the cut. This is very similar to " backing off the pedal" with a gravermax, and caused me no difficulty and the mental adjustment was made in a matter of a very few seconds. And, in fact the palm control, can be ordered with a foot pedal if the engraver so desires.
I then went over and visited with Shane at GRS and sat down and tried the airtact and found it less tactile in comparison. It did not have as good a "feel", and the tangle of airlines was a bit disconcerting for me, personally.
In closing I can say I look forward to the arrival of my palm control Lyndsay handpiece. It will share my bench with my Gravermax, my positioning vise, my powerhone and the many other useful tools I have used over the years.
I will post more comments after I have tried it out for a while.
Barry Lee Hands, Bigfork, Montana
I was at the show in Reno and visited with my friends from GRS and met Mr. Lindsay and tried both the Airtact and the Lindsay palm control.
Mr. Lindsay described the operation of the palm control as something like this: The length of stroke adjustment ring sets the stroke so that in its short stroke setting it moves the anvil closer to the piston, which gives shorter soft strokes and lightens the impact. Or you can set it to a long stroke and have greater impact, which lowers the speed. Of course the power can be adjusted, as in the airflow, by the pressure of the palm against the back of the tool. He asserts that because of this adjustability it is like having" 5 handpieces in one"
I own a gravermax and three handpieces and they all function well. With the foot control one has the option of increasing or decreasing power at any time through the pedal. This does eliminate any tendency to "Scoop" when "flicking" out of the work.
I, like Marcus, learned to use pushgravers early in my career, and am used to "flicking" out of the end of the cut.
When I tried the palm control in Reno I found it to be very comfortable to use. Immediately I was cutting with ease, and carrying on in conversation as I cut, about the operation of the palm control. When Mr Lindsay asked me what I thought about it, I said “I am just thinking if I should use cash or credit card" and filled out an order form on the spot.
I did notice when I cut small scroll that I had to "cut my way out" as opposed to "flicking" my way out, by lowering the aspect of the tool and lightening my palm pressure at the end of the cut. This is very similar to " backing off the pedal" with a gravermax, and caused me no difficulty and the mental adjustment was made in a matter of a very few seconds. And, in fact the palm control, can be ordered with a foot pedal if the engraver so desires.
I then went over and visited with Shane at GRS and sat down and tried the airtact and found it less tactile in comparison. It did not have as good a "feel", and the tangle of airlines was a bit disconcerting for me, personally.
In closing I can say I look forward to the arrival of my palm control Lyndsay handpiece. It will share my bench with my Gravermax, my positioning vise, my powerhone and the many other useful tools I have used over the years.
I will post more comments after I have tried it out for a while.
Barry Lee Hands, Bigfork, Montana
Hi Barry, you old renegade. I was wondering when you'd join the Cafe. / ~Sam
Tim Wells
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
You know, the thing that aggrevates me about this whole thing is that how ever "old" he is; he looks like a spring chicken! Dang I wish I still had that much hair left.
Welcome home Barry, it was good to meet you in Reno; and thanks for all the Montana info. Tim
Welcome home Barry, it was good to meet you in Reno; and thanks for all the Montana info. Tim
Barry Lee Hands
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Well, thanks for the greetings Sam and Tim, I always wanted to be part of the tribe, but "old renegade," hmmmm, and I always thought of myself as a young brigand..HAHA
Barry,
I agree you are a "brigand". It was good to see you in Reno and at the engravers show. I'm still working on that duck you critiqued for me last year.
The nice thing about being slow is you get to watch the pretty girls go by.
Nice to have you aboard.
I agree you are a "brigand". It was good to see you in Reno and at the engravers show. I'm still working on that duck you critiqued for me last year.
The nice thing about being slow is you get to watch the pretty girls go by.
Nice to have you aboard.
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