Layout design input needed

[sdcoxx]

Hello Cafe members,
I have been struggling with this design for some time.....
I reached the point where I could use your input....
Respectfully,
Stephen

ps. I have a 24k rosette in the circle.

 

[pilkguns]

Looks like an equal background ratio, and the leaves are equally sized and balanced from side to side. I don't see anything wrong with the design.

Big leaves like this making up the entire pattern are not my preference, but that matters not it, as long as it is balanced and well formed the design is fine.

 

[monk]

symmetry is there as much as one could ask. so what else would one want ? ummmm- looks ok to me, sd,

 

[TallGary]

Stephen,

Can you put into words what you are struggling with in the design? Is it a particular element? Something just not seem right or as pleasing as you would like?

What size is the object (knife??)

Gary

 

[sdcoxx]

Hello Cafe members,

Gary, you have asked a tough question..... Hear goes....
The practice knife is a stainless steel Spyderco Dragonfly, 3" in length....
My struggle with layout and design is about size, spacing, flow and leaf design.
I have tried for weeks to freehand draw this design....
I finally pulled out the graph paper I bought months ago when I first started reading Ron Smith's books.
Low and behold, the size and spacing problem was cured....
I have a wealth of leaf designs in Ron Smith's books and the GRS practice plates he designed.
It is now a matter of experience and confidence, which in time, I will obtain....
I appreciate the input from my fellow Cafe members...
Thank you, Gary....
Thank you, Scott....
Thank you, Monk....
I will post a photo when I've completed the knife.
Thanks again,
Stephen

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Stephen

Here's a few general thoughts on drawing that may help you out a bit.

1. Make good use of thumbnail sketches. Draw several small layouts. Start with one and as ideas keep coming go to the next and so on. You don't want any detail at this stage only ideas and concepts. You may do 20-30 of them. All you want to do is get a feel for the shape of the object and freeflow with ideas. This is standard practice in all areas of design.

2. Start your drawings with skeletal lines only. Just single free flowing lines that give direction to the design. Scroll, leaf and bits of leaf. Still NO detail at this stage. You are looking for flow, direction and harmony within the lines to see if it all fits together. (Like Ron has in his book)

3. Keep doing this till you start seeing the final design kicking into shape. Then start adding bits of detail.

4. Backgrounds. Pencil in your backgrounds. This will change your designs remarkabley and give you a far better idea of what the final engraving will look like. (unless there is no background)

5. Borders. Put them in first if you are going to have them.

6. Visualise as you go (no it's not some weird new age religion) close your eyes and try to visualise what it is you're trying to do. Just relax and let your mind roam a bit. Don't force it.

7. Screw holes etc. You can either ignore them if they are insignificant. Or of they are significant, then try incorporating them into the overall design. Sometimes easier said than done.

8. The shape you are working on always has a direction. This is really important. Be it circular, curved, square, gun action, knife, jewellery. Always try to go in the direction of the shape if possible. In the case of a knife it would be from rear to front with the sharp edge of the blade pointed down. In the case of a gun, from the butt plate going toward the foresight. This will help you immensley in planning your work. (yes you can go the other way but at this stage I wouldn't recommend it) Look for the direction of the shape or object you are working on.

Your design.............these are my thoughts only and others may think differently.

Why have you put the circle (rosette) in the middle of the knife?

Why have a rosette at all?

I'm not trying to be smart here as I want you to think why you've done it in the first place.

By having the circle in the middle and having the leaves growing in different directions you have immediatley gone against the direction of the knife (item #8). Any harmony with the knife is now lost.

The leaves are very big and will require a lot of shading............will the shading enhance the leaves? or should the leaves be broken down a bit more?

I'm not saying any of this to be critical of your design as I do understand the struggle that you are going through. Try some of the ideas above and see what happens.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[monk]

sd: small stuff gives me fits of a sort too. for me, i sometimes make a rough sketch maybe 15-20 inches in length. maintaining proportion, naturally. when i find something fairly pleasing that is giant, if that same basic idea is shrunk, to say 3 inches, it should still look good. i buy rolls of cheap plotter paper in lengths of 250 - 500 feet. the initial dwg can be real quick with nothing more than a crayon or charcoal. when you get something thats fairly decent and clean, scan, size and transfer if you have the gear to do this.i used to try andrews' #6, but that doesn't work; i always fell asleep !

 

[Glenn]

Stephen,
I think you should make a copy of Andrews post and hang it next to Sams 10 commandments. Read it line by line and concentrate on that particular line and what he is saying. Andrew has really given all of us some great guide lines. Thanks Andrew and Stephen I'm waiting with great interest to view your finished knife.

 

[KCSteve]

Glenn,

I also thought Andrew's post was one for the Tips archive. I've printed off a copy for my own archive.

 

[sdcoxx]

Andrew, Great post....
As Steve and Glen suggested, I have printed it for future reference....
I stumbled across the rosette idea with a dragonfly knife I had designed, previously. see attachement.
The rosette cured my struggle to continue a designs flow throught the narrowing middle of the knife.
With the ideas you have presented, I will certainly look at future designs differently.
Monk, I have difficulty with proportions, as well. When I reduce a drawing to scale, one needs a scope to see the details... No doubt, I have over compensated with this design....
Thank you all, for the helpful input....
Stephen

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Stephen

Glad to be of help The big thing is to just keep practicing as much as you can.

By placing the circle in the middle first, you then started trying to work around the circle............not the knife. So therefore all your thinking and creativity is centred around the circle.

That's where the thumbnail sketches are extremley valuable. That and trying to visualise whatever it is you are trying to acheive. It's a way of trying to combine, or bring together, your creative thinking with your physical lines.

The thumbnails are little more than doodles to try and spark the creative thinking and explore ideas and concepts without spending too much time on them. Then bit by bit your ideas start to solidify.

Don't be afraid to have a book next to you with photos/drawings of scrolls on guns knives or whatever spins your tyres. We all need inspiration from somewhere and it all helps to kick start the creative thinking side of us.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Ron Smith]

Creativity does not come from within. It comes from beyond. Conscious effort will often trap you into traditional treatment or habits that you have formed in learning, not that that is wrong, only limiting. I often set the piece aside, Look at it occasionally to get the personality of the object in my mind. Then I just appeal to the ethereal realm for ideas. I don't think about it too much. The mind left free to explore rather than act from habit, can come up with new concepts. You have to practice this method of creativity and believe in it for it to work however. First attempts at drawing come in stages and then as I get into drawing, things and ideas just come to me in working with the ideas. That is the value of a free mind, not bound by habit or tradition, but you must have a good working knowledge of structure and styles...........We humans like our comfort zones and you have to be willing to walk in the unknown unfetered by pre-concieved notions, and design must be constructed around acceptable, tried and true, solid principals......Just some thoughts on my system. Hope this isn't confusing....Ron S

 

[Jim Sackett]

Hope you dont mind



Stephen I hope you don't mind what I did to your drawing. I used my computer and did a little adjusting here and there.

Jim Sackett
letterguy@jimsackettsengravingplus.com

 

[sdcoxx]

Hello Cafe members,
Completed...
It is what I had in mind, however seeing it on the knife does not fulfill my expectations.
It was a good learning experience and time to move on to the next project.
Thank you, for the valuable input.
Stephen

 

[KCSteve]

It's very well executed, and it's a nice design but yeah, it seems like it's not quite right for that knife.

You know, I don't think it's the engraving - it's the blade. When I block off the blade the handle looks great!

That's what it is! - Your design would be great on a Gentleman's folder but the blade is a Tactical one. Any way you could swap it out to something more genteel?

(Sheesh! Yet another thing I have to keep in mind: make sure the design fits the 'theme' of the object being engraved. <wanders off muttering>)