learning hammer and chisel

[pilkguns]

Is it okay if a die engraver sticks his two cents in?.

yes, more than pleased with your input. But I think we are talking different horses for different courses. My comments should be considered as applying to gun/knife/jewelry type engraving. Work in bigger objects, like your molds, for sure you need to have different tools, and you are getting the efficiency you need (and satisfaction!) from using the right tool for the job.

How bout posting some pictures of the molds you are making, I am sure some of the folks not familar with what what you are doing would be fascinating to see that everything is not made out on a laser or CNC machine quite yet.

 

[Steve Adams]

I know I'm on the edge here a little bit with making dies, but I would love to show the process. Eventually I do want to do a nickel process when I get to the next nickel, but I do dies all the time and can probably put that together much sooner. I will have to get permission from the customer though, and if Sam doesn't mind I will do it. I'll have to find a customer who doesn't mind. I was being interviewed by a TV reporter and made the mistake of answering the question, " what local companies have you done work for." It was a major national corporation, long story short their legal department called me the next day threatening to sue for the mere mention of their name. I've been careful about showing commercial work or talking about customers since. I didn't get sued, they just wanted to blow some hot air. I may have some jobs coming up I can show in the next few months.

 

[Jack Davenport]

broken bones and tools

Scott, I can relate to your time spent recovering from your accident, I have many funny storys to tell about my recovery from an accident at the plant that I worked at for 27 yrs. The most humbling one was when was sitting in my wheel chair and changing the dull end mill on my vertical mill and forgot to unlock the spindle lock, when I turned the mill on to start the mill the motor broke loose from the base and landed in my lap running wide open with a sheave about 10" in diameter, I finally got to the switch and turned the machine off. the moral of the story is I never gave up and eventually went from the wheel chair to a walker then crutches, while on crutches I tried to go spring gobbler hunting. Upon arriving at my carefully prepared blind the morning of the hunt I found someone in my blind, I had to ask forgivness for the way I acted towards the man. I have recovered almost totally from the accident but can say I learned a lot about myself during this time and will never take some things for granted. Just like you said, do what you have always wanted to do now and use whatever tools you can to get there, also you have to be completly willing to do whatever it takes to achieve your goals, I love this life.

 

[Gargoyle]

I'm really enjoying this discussion. Pneumatic hammers came into the stone shops in the late 1880's (powered by big steam compressors). By 1915 if the power went out in a stone mill in Indiana, the stone cutters and carvers (who had all grown up with mallet and chisel) would go home rather than work out the rest of the day without air tools.

One time I was doing a carving demo, I was using the air hammer and chisel; I set down the air hammer, picked up a wooden mallet to get a few strokes at a different angle. I did not change chisels; the same chisel remained in my right hand, all that changed was the type of tool striking it. I heard one of the audience members say when I picked up the mallet "oooh good, now he's going to start carving". There's this perception that the mallet is pure and honest, and a power tool is cheating.

Most of my chisels are 80 to 90 years old. Some of them started life as mallet chisels (with a mushroom shaped head) and 60 or 70 years ago someone ground down the head to fit the shank of an air hammer. The cutting edge didn't change. I use the same chisels with the air and the wooden mallet.

I use both; I was trained in both. Each method has it's advantages; certain angles, shapes, strokes go better with one or the other, so I'm switching back and forth on every piece.

The French don't allow pneumatic hammers to be used in church restoration work; they think it damages the stone or something, and that all restoration has to be done with the exact same tools and techniques as the original work. But if you're going to be that pure about it, then don't stop there- require that the stone be quarried with sledge hammers and wedges, not with diamond wire saws; and bring the stone to the jobsite on a ox drawn cart, not on a diesel truck. Come on, get real! (oh, by the way, I have unloaded stone from an ox cart, but I prefer a fork lift!)

In most cases the pneumatic hammer is more like a fountain pen, it's fluid and graceful. To cut the same two inch stroke might take 10 hard blows with a mallet or 200 short delicate strokes of the piston in the air hammer; and it will take half the time with the air hammer. So, each stroke removes less stone, is more gentle and controlled, but the whole process is faster. It can also get away from you faster; that is part of why I feel it is important for apprentices to first learn the mallet and chisel. You can feel the stone more easily with the mallet, get a feel for it, learn to read it, know how it's going to break or cut. That will then translate into a feel for it with the air tools; without that experience, work is more likely to be rough and ragged.

What I don't like is sanding and grinding; I take the work as far as I can with a chisel to avoid that.

I have some more on the tools on my site.

 

[ken dixon]

I bright cut silver mostly and I for one could have never learned to engrave without the gravermax. I have limited free time due to work and family, both very important, and I wouldn't have lived long enough to get proficient. With the help of Diane's class at GRS and the right tools I have made good progress in a short amount of time.
Ken

 

[Roger Keagle]

When I was at Uni (Many years ago now) my photography prof took my Leica away and handed me a view camera and 2 film holders...told me he would trade me back after the weekend...well, smart ass me I thought I would expose those 4 films by friday afternoon...wrong ! Why am I saying this ? Because there is a lot to be said slowing down, enjoying the ride. I have tried your machines and know that I can go faster, but then I can also get a faster car, faster bike, and faster computer, well, the computer maybe....

 

[jerrywh]

I sometimes wonder if the hammer and chisel proponenets require the same pure period correctness from thier dentist.
Like Scott, I used Hammer and chisel to begin with. I now use everything and anything that will get the job done. When confronted by the purists, I often ask them if they have an indoor toilet and use toilet paper. OR -- if you really want to live in the past, turn out the lights.

 

[Roger Keagle]

Smile...I'm not so sure the indoor toilet was such a great idea...!

 

[richard hall]

Glad this topic was brought up once again. I like the hammer and chisel, mostly out of reconnecting somehow with our forefathers, and the way they did things. Iam not sure about learning curves when using either one, as I see the real curve is in getting the training, take a course , go to a good trainer or school, that will put a person leap years ahead of the game, instead of winging it yourself.......

 

[JJ Roberts]

There are engravers that are total devotees to the hammer & chisel & hand tools. Recently at Ken Hurst's get together in NC I met a gentleman by the name of Jere Davidson who worked strictly in the traditional manner, and did the most beautiful guns and knives. Jere taught Andy Shinosky and you all know what an engraver and knife maker Andy is. Two very talented men. Wish I could get down to the other engrave in and the Blade Show, but I am a little backed up at this time so hope everybody enjoys themselves at both events.

Yours truly,
JJ Roberts

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Personally, I think it's the end product that counts. All tools are valid. But having learned the hard way, the new air assisted tools do offer more scope and are more versatile. As I've said in other threads however, a master with a hammer and chisel or push graver can still turn out fantastic work that can compete with power tools easily. The trade off is, as Scott says, years and years of mastering the tools. When I first started with h&c just getting the hammer moving in the hand correctly and coordinating it hitting the chisel, seemed to take forever.

Would I go back to the old tools and old ways, nah!!! The stress and worry of a point breaking and the graver skidding across many 10's of hours of work has gone. I can't remember the last time I stabbed my hand to the bone or flicked a bur into my eye. all this stuff is in the past and that's where I want it to stay. I'm a power convert, and although I appreciate the tools of the past (I'll even cut some small scroll by hand pushing occasionally, just for the hell of it), those tools can stay in the past as far as I'm concerned. I used to be a 'purist' but Ludite was probably a better term.

 

[Weldon47]

Marcus,
I couldn't agree more with the "all tools are valid" comment. I know exactly what it took to master the hammer and chisel. Were I to be starting from scratch (pardon the pun) today, I would go with power assisted tools because they do shorten the learning curve considerably. In fact, I find myself using power assist tolls more and more and have discovered that there are certain things I can do with power assist that are extremely difficult if not impossible to do otherwise.

I also agree that it is the end product that counts and arguing over what method it took to derive the work wastes time and energy that could be used elsewhere.

I do understand that there are folks out there who want (for any number of reasons) to learn the hammer and chisel and I applaud the effort.....go for it, it will broaden your understanding and appreciation of the art!

Weldon

 

[ddushane]

I've enjoyed reading this thread this morning. I'm a beginner still after a few years of playing with the engraving. I'm a lover of tools from the past and present. & knives, & guns and I love to try to master them. I don't however want to master the use of chisel and hammer at this time in my life, we're having grand children here lately & that is consuming a great deal of my time. I do love to engrave and the power tools have helped me learn I believe a great deal faster that hand tools, like someone said earlier in this thread, I have only so many days allotted to me and I don't want to waist them. I want to build the knives & guns that I want to and I want to engrave them if possible without screwing them up. I do have a great deal of respect for those of you who have learned & mastered the art of chisel & hammer engraving but as for me in my infancy, I better stick with the new stuff. Thanks for all yalls posts. It has been eye opening.

Dwayne

 

[Steve223]

I hand push all my silver and tried pushin steel but i have landed on my sholders to many times and i just couldet push steel but recently i aquired an air assist machine and it is opening new doors for me.For whatever reason pushing a liner was pretty hard on my sholders and elbows but I now do most of my liner work with the gravermister and its much more pleasureable. I am also trying to learn single point engraveing and i am haveing fun with it. I will still do most of my bright cutting in silver by hand pushing but i am begining to really like my gravermister. And one day i hope to be able to engrave as well as all the very talanted folks that hang out here.
Steve

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Weldon, I do appreciate and understand folks wanting to connect with the 'old ways' too. There is something about creating a thing of beauty through nothing but muscle power.

Steve, I almost ended up with a RSI in my shoulder because steels used in gunmaking were getting tougher and tougher. Air assisted tools saved my career, literally!

I must admit though, I don't use power tools for everything. With bulino, I find I will often go back to hand pushing because when working really finely there is nothing like pure muscle for ultimate control of the graver. After hours and hours of working on a scene, hands do get tired and fingers get sore; something that rarely happens with air assistance.

 

[Dave London]

Hi Scott Great thread, as you know I use an Airgraver, and thanks for the great class at GRS. Funny thing happened one day I thought what the H@#!! lets give the H&C a shot. Well I had some graver handles that I got from Ray V( a really nice gentleman) . Yes I am a tool addict. So to end this I got a practice plate and cut some fairly decent scrolls etc, just useing the same gravers. I could feel the point in the groove. Was fun but it is power for this old guy maybe H&C for the unusual tough spot.
Have a great time at the engravin, I will make it next year Dave