bitmaker
Member
I'm with you Dave !!!
Jim
Jim
Lebeau-Cuorally restoration advice?????????
- Thread starter Ray Cover
- Start date
Marcus Hunt
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Sorry guys, please accept my sincere apologies. My comments were not meant as 'cheap shots' but I have honestly seen some abissmal gunsmithing on fine firearms. I am not being derogatory to anyone who has served his time at the bench and takes care and pride in what he does. There are those gunsmiths who go out of their way to understand what they are working on before tackling a job they don't fully comprehend and they have the skills to do wonderful work, even on the finest of guns which they may never have touched before. Then there are the 'hack merchants' who will tackle any job given to them and, yes, they get the gun working but for a) how long and b) what damage have they done to the intrinsic value of the firearm? I'm sorry if this comment makes some of you smart, all I can ask is why have you such fragile egos? I mean, honestly, what gunsmith worth his salt is going to braze extra plates on top of the existing ones without taking the originals down first or making new ones? Surely this piece would have been better left alone than being tinkered with and leaving the locks proud of the wood work?
There are many fine US gunsmiths and Doug Turnbull is but one I know of. In fact I take my hat off to many of you American engravers who also gunsmith. In Europe we are very lucky in that the gunmakers and gunsmiths will prepare a job for engraving by filing and polishing it ready for the engraver. In the USA you have to do all this prep work yourselves so don't for one minute think I'm punting for a cheap shot at Americans. You know what? I've also seen some awful engraving jobs in the past from some engravers but this doesn't mean every engraver is a bad one. All I was saying is choose whoever is going to work on your fine European firearm (which in some cases is worth in the $100K+ range) with care and make sure they know what they are doing or you will end up with something like this that Ray now has to deal with. Far from being worth $140K to a gun dealer or collector You'd be lucky to get $14K! By way of an example take a standard 1930's Purdey, in excellent condition it could be worth $60,000 say. But if the barrels have been damaged and it's been sleeved you'll be lucky to see one third of that price (even though it's still a great gun and shoots wonderfully) and new barrels by the maker will cost you the best part of $40,000. So can you see what I'm getting at? Likewise, the wrong thing engraved on a gun can devalue it too. I saw a porno engraved Belgian sidelock which must have cost $60K+ to produce fetch around $6000 at auction. The engraving was beautifully executed and the gun was only a couple of years old so there was nothing intrinsically wrong with it; just the wrong subject matter for the majority of people.
I may have been wrong and put American 'gunsmiths' in my text and if that offends I apologise (that's why I put the word gunsmiths in parenthesies. I lived in hope that you wouldn't misconstrue the genuine from the 'hack')). I am aware that there is bad gunsmithing everywhere in the world. However, the bad examples I have seen in the USA and been done by gunsmiths there. Like I say, you have some great quality guys too so please do not take offence. None was meant.
There are many fine US gunsmiths and Doug Turnbull is but one I know of. In fact I take my hat off to many of you American engravers who also gunsmith. In Europe we are very lucky in that the gunmakers and gunsmiths will prepare a job for engraving by filing and polishing it ready for the engraver. In the USA you have to do all this prep work yourselves so don't for one minute think I'm punting for a cheap shot at Americans. You know what? I've also seen some awful engraving jobs in the past from some engravers but this doesn't mean every engraver is a bad one. All I was saying is choose whoever is going to work on your fine European firearm (which in some cases is worth in the $100K+ range) with care and make sure they know what they are doing or you will end up with something like this that Ray now has to deal with. Far from being worth $140K to a gun dealer or collector You'd be lucky to get $14K! By way of an example take a standard 1930's Purdey, in excellent condition it could be worth $60,000 say. But if the barrels have been damaged and it's been sleeved you'll be lucky to see one third of that price (even though it's still a great gun and shoots wonderfully) and new barrels by the maker will cost you the best part of $40,000. So can you see what I'm getting at? Likewise, the wrong thing engraved on a gun can devalue it too. I saw a porno engraved Belgian sidelock which must have cost $60K+ to produce fetch around $6000 at auction. The engraving was beautifully executed and the gun was only a couple of years old so there was nothing intrinsically wrong with it; just the wrong subject matter for the majority of people.
I may have been wrong and put American 'gunsmiths' in my text and if that offends I apologise (that's why I put the word gunsmiths in parenthesies. I lived in hope that you wouldn't misconstrue the genuine from the 'hack')). I am aware that there is bad gunsmithing everywhere in the world. However, the bad examples I have seen in the USA and been done by gunsmiths there. Like I say, you have some great quality guys too so please do not take offence. None was meant.
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Confidence is proportional to experience. I will not take the risk to accept the job if I don't have 100% confidence, especially the item seems very expensive and rare. Just the same as other experts' suggestion. You post for advise here means you may have only 99.9% confidence! Still not enouhg!
If that's the case I better stop engraving altogether.
I was commenting on the 100% confidence theory.
No artist or craftsman of any kind should allow himself to feel 100% confident on any job. If he does he will get way to comfortable, let his guard down and start making foolish mistakes. If an artist gets to that point it is better to quit than let his work regress.
He should keep enough challenge in every job to cause him to keep his eyes open, stay alert and keep his skills sharp. I hope I am never 100% confident about any job I start.
Ray
No artist or craftsman of any kind should allow himself to feel 100% confident on any job. If he does he will get way to comfortable, let his guard down and start making foolish mistakes. If an artist gets to that point it is better to quit than let his work regress.
He should keep enough challenge in every job to cause him to keep his eyes open, stay alert and keep his skills sharp. I hope I am never 100% confident about any job I start.
Ray
Marcus Hunt
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
How right you are Ray. The jobs which are no longer a challenge become the boring ones. That's one of the reasons I hate engraving pairs or sets of guns with all the laborious matching up. And then, if you're not careful you make the foolish mistakes you mention.
If your friend is serious about you tackling his high end rifle then he should not cut corners. By that I mean getting you, his friend, to do anything on the cheap. There is a lot to a hand made double rifle and lock making is a skill and art in itself. That's why there are specialist lockmakers who supply the gun trade over here. The 'actioner' then takes these locks and shapes and fits them to the action. When the gun has been case hardened the 'finisher' will assemble the gun, lock, stock and barrel and make it work! The locks often warp in the hardening process and he has to gently bend them to fit. With a fine double gun you'll also notice a cast on the lockplates i.e. they're not flat plates but bend to follow the lines of the stock which is fitted to the guns owner.
If you and your friend are serious about contemplating this project (which I hope you are coz I'd love to see it in proper condition with your engraving on it) you are going to be into some serious money to put it right. Please, if you are not confident about the preparation work prior to your embellishing it do seek advice from someone who knows what they're doing. It will make life so much easier for you in the long run and there are professionals out there (some of whom have emigrated from Europe) who can help you. I really think this could be and indeed deserves to be done properly and it will be a fantastic canvass for your artwork.
If your friend is serious about you tackling his high end rifle then he should not cut corners. By that I mean getting you, his friend, to do anything on the cheap. There is a lot to a hand made double rifle and lock making is a skill and art in itself. That's why there are specialist lockmakers who supply the gun trade over here. The 'actioner' then takes these locks and shapes and fits them to the action. When the gun has been case hardened the 'finisher' will assemble the gun, lock, stock and barrel and make it work! The locks often warp in the hardening process and he has to gently bend them to fit. With a fine double gun you'll also notice a cast on the lockplates i.e. they're not flat plates but bend to follow the lines of the stock which is fitted to the guns owner.
If you and your friend are serious about contemplating this project (which I hope you are coz I'd love to see it in proper condition with your engraving on it) you are going to be into some serious money to put it right. Please, if you are not confident about the preparation work prior to your embellishing it do seek advice from someone who knows what they're doing. It will make life so much easier for you in the long run and there are professionals out there (some of whom have emigrated from Europe) who can help you. I really think this could be and indeed deserves to be done properly and it will be a fantastic canvass for your artwork.
ED DELORGE
Elite Cafe Member
Hello Marcus, your first comments did sting a bit, but I do have to agree with you completely. When I was in gunsmith school I was very fortunate to have Lenard Bull for an instructure who was born and trained in England. I still call him when ever I need advice, how grateful I am to have him looking over my shoulder. Unfortunately, any one in the USA can hang up a shingle that says Gunsmith or Engraver. You can't do that as a plumber, electrian, doctor and a lot of other professions, and I don't think it is likely to change.
One must be very careful when choosing a gunsmith.
Also, I don't know if you read my previous comments on the side plates but I think the add-on plates were added to be able to give the customer the gold Elephants. I will bet that if the add-on plates are removed the origional engraving can be restored and the plates will fit the stocks properly.
Ed DeLorge
One must be very careful when choosing a gunsmith.
Also, I don't know if you read my previous comments on the side plates but I think the add-on plates were added to be able to give the customer the gold Elephants. I will bet that if the add-on plates are removed the origional engraving can be restored and the plates will fit the stocks properly.
Ed DeLorge
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Go on Ray
Rip the guts out of it so we can all see what's underneath.................we're all bursting with curiosity......after all, it's only money...........
Cheers
Andrew
Rip the guts out of it so we can all see what's underneath.................we're all bursting with curiosity......after all, it's only money...........
Cheers
Andrew
ED DELORGE
Elite Cafe Member
So Ray, How is it going on this project? Any new developments?
Ed Delorge
Ed Delorge
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