liner engravers
- Thread starter Samuel
- Start date
KSnyder
Elite Cafe Member
Samuel, I " try " to use the liner gravers on western style work. 
when I do use these I push them.
check out the post " a bracelet for Betty". Brian Prowley made this bracelet for his wife and has to good pictures of the use of a liner.
Use of a liner in most other work would be considered more on the order of "budget" work when used in place of single point shading.
Kent
when I do use these I push them.
check out the post " a bracelet for Betty". Brian Prowley made this bracelet for his wife and has to good pictures of the use of a liner.
Use of a liner in most other work would be considered more on the order of "budget" work when used in place of single point shading.
Kent
Weldon47
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Samuel,
Nice to have you here!
I make use of liners quite frequently in the work I do and like you, I too am a hammer & chisel engraver. Liners are available (as you may already know) from most of the supply houses that stock regular gravers. The Ngraver company has the only hardened (that I know of) liners. These are pretty useful when you get into something a little harder than normal. The standard liners are not "hardened" so, they will dull pretty quickly on some of the tougher/harder gun steel. I agree with Kent that liners are a great time saver and are used on work up to a point. On the very highest quality work single point shading is more appropriate but not absolutely mandated. As always, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" & the technique one uses whether it be single point shading, liner, etc. etc.. along with the artistic layout and execution of the design must all work together! As an engraver one must continually seek to balance the time and effort involved in a project with the fee charged to provide the client/patron with the very best work without (the engraver) going broke at the same time! Whew! What a can of worms opened by a liner!!
Weldon
Nice to have you here!
I make use of liners quite frequently in the work I do and like you, I too am a hammer & chisel engraver. Liners are available (as you may already know) from most of the supply houses that stock regular gravers. The Ngraver company has the only hardened (that I know of) liners. These are pretty useful when you get into something a little harder than normal. The standard liners are not "hardened" so, they will dull pretty quickly on some of the tougher/harder gun steel. I agree with Kent that liners are a great time saver and are used on work up to a point. On the very highest quality work single point shading is more appropriate but not absolutely mandated. As always, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" & the technique one uses whether it be single point shading, liner, etc. etc.. along with the artistic layout and execution of the design must all work together! As an engraver one must continually seek to balance the time and effort involved in a project with the fee charged to provide the client/patron with the very best work without (the engraver) going broke at the same time! Whew! What a can of worms opened by a liner!!
Weldon
liner gravers produce lines a set distance apart. all the fine artistic work, or at least the very most of it, the lines are cut 1 line at a time.
Samuel,
When I was chase hammer-chisel engraving I did all my backgrounds with a #8-10 line graver. I could remove the background and texture at the same time. Now that I am using air assist I am stipling with a single point because it goes so fast.
Roger Henrichs
When I was chase hammer-chisel engraving I did all my backgrounds with a #8-10 line graver. I could remove the background and texture at the same time. Now that I am using air assist I am stipling with a single point because it goes so fast.
Roger Henrichs
Weldon, you have made excellent points. I always saw my approach as, do what it takes to make the income, then spend any extra time or whatever doing the fine work, as you don't usually get paid as well doing that, or at least that has been my experience. The finer the work, the more time and less people to pay the price. The liner has a definate place in engraving even though it is a difficult tool to use in certain cases. It is good for laying down tones before you begin to do the single point shading. It works well for background scenes and such. It is difficult to make turns with and has to be shaped a bit differently for that purpose. It is particularly good for lettering. liners are here to stay......Ron S
The "standard liners" are carbon steel and have to be heat treated, then they will perform pretty well, but not on the modern steels. N-graver makes high speed if I am not mistaken for the pneumatic gravers. Of course you could use them for chisels too.
The "standard liners" are carbon steel and have to be heat treated, then they will perform pretty well, but not on the modern steels. N-graver makes high speed if I am not mistaken for the pneumatic gravers. Of course you could use them for chisels too.
BrianPowley
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Samuel, I only use liners for "Bright Cut" western style engraving, and usually only on silver or gold.
I've tried to apply it on guns(liners), but I'm not able to pull it off effectively. I stick with single point shading.
I have "dabbled" with liners in the background,but only to scuff it up, or matte it.
Most of my liners are shaped with a round nose for cutting curves.
With the G-Max I can take the liner tool and hold it just above the metal, push the foot pedal down slightly to get things buzzing and then slightly touch the tip of the liner onto the steel and drag it backwards.I guess it would be described as a wiping motion.
It mattes up the surface a little. I can rotate the vise slightly and hit it again in another direction.
It can matte an area pretty fast, but understand that I said I dabbled with them in the background.
I usually hog out, punch and stipple the background.
Brian
I've tried to apply it on guns(liners), but I'm not able to pull it off effectively. I stick with single point shading.
I have "dabbled" with liners in the background,but only to scuff it up, or matte it.
Most of my liners are shaped with a round nose for cutting curves.
With the G-Max I can take the liner tool and hold it just above the metal, push the foot pedal down slightly to get things buzzing and then slightly touch the tip of the liner onto the steel and drag it backwards.I guess it would be described as a wiping motion.
It mattes up the surface a little. I can rotate the vise slightly and hit it again in another direction.
It can matte an area pretty fast, but understand that I said I dabbled with them in the background.
I usually hog out, punch and stipple the background.
Brian
pierre
Elite Cafe Member
Samue, I use a liner only to engrave the upper rib of the barel but in the past in Liège we used it for background , animals, landscape and shadow. The FN worker who had more than 3 guns to engrave used the liner. When you work usaually whith a liner you can have also a very good finish. at the FN they use the hamer chisel method combinated whith liner for mid games guns.
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Samuel, you can polish the teeth on the belly side just slightly to improve the turning ability, but the benifit is so subtle that it is almost not worth it. It also would make the teeth a little more durable as they are very vulnerabe to chipping. The best thing I have found to increase the turning potential is to buy the bent gravers or bend them yourself which only works on the carbon steel ones that you can re-heat treat yourself. They are made in HHS though nowadays. I think I describe this process briefly in my book, or at least in some of my writings, but it takes some experience and practice working with it to pull it off.
The most important thing to know about "bent liners" is that there are miniscule flat spots along even a bent gravers lined surface. They have a very high lift unless you break off about an inch of the tool. If you can hit a peak of a flat spot in your sharpening, all of a sudden the tool will perform somewhat better, but to sum it all up. Liners are hard to master for very many purposes, but can be put to good use, providing you know how to stay within its limitations..........They can be used effectively, as is obvious by skilled hands, for many good purposes.........And that is my two cents on the subject.........Forward!....Ron S
Oh Pierre, by the way, we used to call this finish (liner use cross-hatching on the rib) in America "flourentine finish" and it is used on jewelry a lot.
The most important thing to know about "bent liners" is that there are miniscule flat spots along even a bent gravers lined surface. They have a very high lift unless you break off about an inch of the tool. If you can hit a peak of a flat spot in your sharpening, all of a sudden the tool will perform somewhat better, but to sum it all up. Liners are hard to master for very many purposes, but can be put to good use, providing you know how to stay within its limitations..........They can be used effectively, as is obvious by skilled hands, for many good purposes.........And that is my two cents on the subject.........Forward!....Ron S
Oh Pierre, by the way, we used to call this finish (liner use cross-hatching on the rib) in America "flourentine finish" and it is used on jewelry a lot.
Samuel.
If you are ever at a FEGA show or many other places the Ngraver Company is demonstrating their tools ask Ray Phillips to give you a little demo in the use of liners.
He not only makes the best liners IMO but can really put them to expert use.
Ron Smith is no dud in their use or in any other thing for that matter.
Also, any of the Belgium trained engravers can do some great work with them and show you the ropes.
Best of luck with your engraving, John B.
If you are ever at a FEGA show or many other places the Ngraver Company is demonstrating their tools ask Ray Phillips to give you a little demo in the use of liners.
He not only makes the best liners IMO but can really put them to expert use.
Ron Smith is no dud in their use or in any other thing for that matter.
Also, any of the Belgium trained engravers can do some great work with them and show you the ropes.
Best of luck with your engraving, John B.
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Thierry Duguet
Elite Cafe Member
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2007
- Messages
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For your information: Vallorbe made liner tools are the best around, they cut almost everything, they are made to be use with a hammer. Vallorbe is a Swiss company.
Tim Wells
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Tom Curran
Elite Cafe Member
I use a curved liner for backgrounding. They don't slip sideways as a flat graver will.
You must use a bent, and as described above, often an inch has to be cut off to get the curve right for your work. The bend is necessary to avoid marring your work under the back side of the liner. All those lines will wreak havoc on your raised work.
You must use a bent, and as described above, often an inch has to be cut off to get the curve right for your work. The bend is necessary to avoid marring your work under the back side of the liner. All those lines will wreak havoc on your raised work.
Thierry Duguet
Elite Cafe Member
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2007
- Messages
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Actually bending is not necessary, the secret is a good cutting tool and the cutting angle. In Belgium they use curve liners only for pushing tools. Properly sharpen your tool will not slip, it slip because it does not bite. I will add that I do not use liner tools on "hard" gun, only on soft or soften one (Belgium, British), a liner tools is a time saving tools, if you spend too much time sharpening it you do not save time.
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Thierry Duguet
Elite Cafe Member
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2007
- Messages
- 359
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