Machine Vs Hand Engraving

[Andrew Biggs]

Something on another thread prompted me to write this. While Rod Cameron and I were walking around the Safari Club International show, taking in the vast array of high end bling I couldn’t help notice something.

That is the number of guns with laser engraving on them. And they were well done!!!

Five years ago these guns stuck out as being machine done. It was noticeable from 10 meters away. Everything about them screamed “Machine Doneâ€

Now it’s a different story. You have to get closer and closer to see the differences. The designs are much better along with the cutting technology. Some of the 3D work was very well done with animal composition and design. The technology to create these things is also getting a lot cheaper.

It does make you wonder about the next five years.

I’m not writing this to be alarmist or even suggest that the machine will overtake hand engraving…………….but it does pay to keep a “weather eye†on what is happening around us.

I’d be interested to see what you guys think about this.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[John B.]

Andrew, I agree. We need to keep an eye on emerging tech.
As you say, the machine cut things are getting much better.
When we think about the past, all really fine gunmaking required many hours of highly skilled work by master gunmakers.
Now some of the best custom made guns in the world are mostly machine made.
So far the best of the best firearms still rely on hand engraving for a true custom presentation.
But the future??? We need to stay ahead of the curve.
Just a lot of food for thought.
I do believe there will always be a small group of clients who demand nothing but fine hand work.
Just my thoughts. John B.

 

[KCSteve]

Photography handles most image reproduction these days, but the market for hand-painted images is bigger than ever.

 

[CJ Allan]

The thing I think you need to not only remind your selves of, but any clients too, of one simple fact.......

"Sure they can make machines to do fantastic work......

But NONE of that work will ever have "YOUR" signature, or mark on it......and that's what will always be the most important thing..... !!

Besides......I don't think anyone will ever be able teach any machine how to cover up it's mistakes, and make em look intentional.... & that counts too......


...........cj

 

[richard hall]

i have always resisted change,but one must ajust to survive. our forefathers resisted the change from the muzzleloaders to the new breech, as they knew they could depend upon what worked for them over the years. id guess that when the new air power engravers came out, it sent chills down peoples backs. some day, G.R.S. will be selling theses new laser do-dads, and guys will be touting on how much time can be saved by using them. there will still be design and layout i guess, just hate to see old ways die.

 

[Roger Bleile]

I have two Beretta sporting clays guns I use regularly. A Silver Pigeon II and a EELL Diamond Pigeon. These guns are decorated with die work. From the look of them the dies are hand engraved at Bottega Giovanelli. Because the ornamentation is small scale i.e. English scroll or fine Italianate, it would take an engraver to know that they are not hand done. The SPII has high relief scene panels on both sides and the only way I can know for sure that they are not hand chiseled is that it could not be hand cut for the price of the gun and that they are all identical. Kurt Horvath once told me that he saw how they were done in the factory. Basically, the frame forging is put into a sophisticated press and the decoration is squeezed into it under tremendous pressure. Naturally when it is removed from the press there is surplus from the displacement of the metal. This is ground off on the assembly line.

Of course we have all seen production guns that appear to have gold inlayed figures on them but are in reality selectively gold plated.

Simple economics tells us that when the demand for something that is hand made becomes great enough the demand will cause industry to invest in tooling to eliminate hand work and the hand worker. This is the history of man.

What burns me up is that when these industrially decorated guns are reviewed in gun publications they are referred to as "engraved." I can expect that out of the general interest gun mags but I even read it in Shooting Sportsman. Also most of the manufactures ads refer to stamped, lasered, and etched guns as "engraved."

My opinion and the definition I gave in American Engravers is engraving is the CUTTING into metal etc. Stamped, etched, and burned (laser) guns are not engraved. Unless there are metal chips on the floor, it is not engraved. This is not to say that using acid for background removal or using punches in borders or in sculpting is not part of the engraving process.

Of course the one thing these processes will always lack is individuality. When we engrave a gun or knife we can assure the customer that it is one of a kind. Even factory coverage hand engraved guns (A, B, C coverage etc.) still is done one at a time and have individual characteristics.

I have been sorely tempted to write into some of the gun pubs and assert what is engraving and what is not when one of their articles refers to a machine decorated gun or knife as "engraved." One thing that holds me back is that no one ever appointed me spokesman for the engraving trade. Perhaps FEGA could create a Public Information Officer, as exists in nearly every other profession, to address these inaccuracies when published. PIO position not withstanding, I am fine with FEGA officials speaking for us on this issue.

Sorry for the long post but I got a little cranked up on this issue.

Roger

 

[CJ Allan]

WOW.....
Looks like some of us were posting at the same time...

Just look at those machine engraved items....and ask..
OK, So where's the engravers signature.....??

When they say it's lazor/machine done.......just shrug, smile, and say........
"OH......How Nice....." with a little syrup on it.. (that's a little Kentucky thing. )

...cj

 

[Roger Bleile]

CJ,

Those Berettas of mine ARE signed. They are both signed "Bottega Giovanelli, Inc". The Inc. meaning in Italian, Engraver not Incorporated as in English. Numerous people at skeet and clay shoots have told me their gun was engraved by Giovanelli. I had to explain that Bottega means the studio of or atlier of Giovanelli and that they engrave the dies not the guns.

Roger

 

[Andrew Biggs]

22 years ago I sat in a room with all the other signwriters in Christchurch. There were 40 of us in business at the time. We were there at the invitation of a new dynamic company starting up in the city. It was at this meeting that the very first computer cut lettering machine was demonstrated.

It cost $65,000, had 4 fonts and a digital LED screen 4 inches long by 1 inch wide. Its cutting speed was slower than a turtle on valium and the consumables for it were hideously expensive.

We all sat there completely aghast and didn’t quite realise that we had just witnessed the end of our trade as we had known it. Everything that we did in those days was hand done. Lettering, pictorials, murals, and some of us were pretty good at it. We loved the smell of paint and took a certain amount of pride that we were covered in the stuff. Sable brushes, Ox hair brushes, air brushes, mahl sticks, pencils, pouncing wheels, snap lines and chalk were our tools.

We were craftsmen in our own right and the demarcation lines between the trades was very black and white. Magazine and newspaper advertising, bill board advertising, architecture, publishing, photography, graphic design and signwriting were all very separate and specialised areas.

22 years later we all own these machines except now they are rockets compared to that first machine. There are now over 120 signwriting businesses in Christchurch and a whole new generation of signwriters have emerged that don’t know what a sable lettering brush is. Paint is almost a thing of the past and PhotoShop and printers rule the entire industry. Now there are no demarcation lines. I’m just as happy making a no parking sign as I am publishing a magazine. The combination of lettering and photos has become my stock and trade. As I look around town now I can no longer recognise who did what. There was a time where I could tell everyone’s signs by their style of hand signwriting. Their style was their signature.

As the computers got better so did the operators that used them and they have become craftsmen in their own right continually pushing the boundaries of what can be done on their machines. The quality of the graphics work and designs just got better and better. None of it happened overnight and everything happened in small increments.

A small part of me laments those hand done days but the realist side of me understands that change is inevitable. If we had a crystal ball 22 years ago and were able to look into our trade today I wonder what our reaction would have been.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Leonardo]

Hi Andrew! Good evening... It is 10:06 AM here, in Barcelona and our American friends may be still sleeping... the magic of Internet! What's the time in Christchurch?
You all are right but there are some points to discuss and we can be writing hours about all of these.
The machines are made to do the things faster than the man but not always better depending on the kind of work. In the other hand, computers a CNC machines had been possible realize works that were impossible to be done by hand in the past times. Look at the cars; can you imagine making the molds and dies to do the sophisticated and nice forms that have the cars today?
But do not worry about... the machines always need a man behind it. They are incredibly stupid and lacking of the artist's talent. They will do only the things that we order they to do.
We will talk many more about all of these!
Kind regards,
Leonardo

 

[Dulltool]

People will always appreciate and pay much more for a hand painted sign over a vinyl computer cutout anytime. Remember our customers are buying our ART.... It's something a machine will never be able to do or have.

By the way, it's 2:30 am here on Orcas Island.
Dennis

 

[Gargoyle]

I have been sorely tempted to write into some of the gun pubs and assert what is engraving and what is not

Don't write into the gun pubs. Write an article, with photos, which educates people about different types of engraving and incision, and submit it to them. Magazines always need materials; every month they have to find a number of articles to fill their pages. It really isn't that hard to place an article in a publication.

Such an article will have a much deeper and more lasting effect on the people who read it, and will be read by more people than read the letters to the editor page.

In other words, don't just sit and bemoan the situtation or complain, but do something positive.

 

[Ray Cover]

My view on this very much lines up with the comment KC Steve made.

At one point in time drawing and painting were the only way to capture a rendered image. Then photography came along. Notice that folks are still drawing and painting by the thousands.

The first photography was based on silver bromide emulsions and was all black and white. What happened to drawing and painting during that era? Color and color theory became extremely important in painting and drawing.

When color photography came on the scene. The emphasis of painting was more expression and abstract theory.

Photography had its influence on painting and drawing. It made its dent in that world and it did change it. However, it did nothing to destroy it.

I kind of see this laser thing as being the same in the way it effects us.

The laser may end up with the ability to cut impressive scroll. That may push a move toward more bulino or multi metal inlay work being desired by our customers. Maybe the Color it system will catch hold with a fervor and become popular in hand engraving (like the wonderful Creative Art knife on Steve's forum that Tim Herman recently posted).

Since the laser stuff is becoming as good as you guys describe, I am sure it will have an impact on the engraving market.

It may cause some to throw up there hands in disgust and give up, it will surely cause the rest of us to step up to the plate and push hand engraving to new places. The big question is, which of those two groups do you plan to be in?

Ray

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Yip, My thoughts are pretty much the same. The bigger the mass produced market, the more niche markets seem to thrive. The Yin and Yang of life I guess.

It'll be interesting to see where both ends of the spectrum lead in the future.

Gargoyle............. now that is a very good idea!!!


Cheers
Andrew

 

[Roger Bleile]

...It really isn't that hard to place an article in a publication.
...do something positive.

Gargoyle,
Some of the members of this forum can tell you that I have done a few positive things for the engraving world. I have written a book featuring the works of numerous engravers, written a pamphlet called Firearms Engraving Facts for FEGA to educate the customers and written several magazine articles. I am also a founding member of FEGA and the person who organized the first meeting.

At one time I had no trouble getting articles on engraving or engravers in gun magazines but things have changed in recent years. All of the broadly circulated gun publications have primarily become editorial promoters for their advertisers. Even their articles on hunting must tie in products from gun, ammo, and equipment manufacturers as part of the hunting story. With the exception of a few small niche publications, engravers can hardly afford advertising and so to G&A and the other big ones engravers have become persona non grata.

That said, I am working on an article I hope to get into one of the cowboy shooting publications. Small circulation but these publications do run some small ads by engravers. One of them however has an onerous method of writing about such things. Give the editor a free engraving job, holster, hat or whatever and they will say how great a craftsman the donor is. I won't stoop to that level. Never the less I am going to try with the others.

Roger

 

[Gargoyle]

At one time I had no trouble getting articles on engraving or engravers in gun magazines but things have changed in recent years. All of the broadly circulated gun publications have primarily become editorial promoters for their advertisers.

That's a shame. That has happened in a lot of other sectors of the magazine world, unfortunately. I see a lot of that in the interior design and architecure magazines. One of my fireplaces once made the cover of Architectural Digest, and two others from the same house were shown in pix in the article; the word "fireplace" only appeared once in the article, in reference to an old one which had been removed. I was never mentioned, although my name and info had been provided to them. (think of the promotional value I would have gotten being linked in print to the cover)

All the names and products mentioned were of either advertisers, or major companies which were potential advertisers. The next article in the mag had a really bland fireplace, just three flat slabs of stone, but it specifically stated that it had been "designed" by the star designer featured in that article. Architectural Digest has really become a version of People magazine (the house is featured because of the name of the client or designer, not because of the unique design quality), and from what you say it sounds like the gun mags are going the same route.