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[Santo]

Alright, I've got to confess that I am ready to toss in the towel . This engraving thing is taking a major emotional toll on me. I know I've been as frustrated in the past -- I can't remember when. I respect and admire the expertise and talent of this timeless art form presented in this forum and am grateful to be able to glean whatever priceless tidbits I can from all of you . However, with that said I need to ask you all to consider something.

All the beautiful work and advice in this forum is inspiring and challenging -- but it is 99% directed and involved to those who are doing power tool engraving. Yet, there are some of us who, for whatever reason, are not yet able to invest at this level of tool ownership. We, are trying to learn to engrave using the old hand push method/s. Hand pushing gravers, hand sharpening gravers, hand . . . everything.

There are many of you who have been in this business for many years. What words of wisdom and advice do you have for those of us who are at the real begining of the engraving learning curve? Are the suggestions and engraving tips applicable across methods of administration (power and push)? Is there a difference in how you sharpen a graver for pushing (angle heel and length)? What and how are the most productive ways to practice? What metal is best to practice on? I've been working on some copper cut outs I picked up a while ago to make pendents with. What would be the absolute minimum investment in tools one would need? The questions go on and on.

I have been an off and on scrimshander for years and would like to be able to engrave some of the copper and silver jewelry pendents and bracelets I make. Lately, after one miserable attempt after another to engrave simple scrolls, I'm thinking that I would be ahead of the game if I concentrated this energy into advancing my scriming.

I really do appreciate being part of this forum and would treasure any and all suggestions your collective expertice and experience can offer. Thank you all for your generosity and consideration.

S~

 

[Harold]

My 1st engraving class was a week of push graving. This one class was part of Blaine Lewis's 12 graduate bench jeweler program. I seen a lot of bloody fingers that week. I learned what I could from Jason. I came home and could not make myself push engrave.
I knew I still wanted to cut metal and saved about a year for some air assist tooling. I cut a inch a day now and miss it when I don't. I think you will find some happiness when you can get some air help.

 

[Brian Marshall]

Santo,

I spent my first ten years engraving with push gravers and "freehand" sharpening on whetstones. I was able to make a living at it... It can be done, and still is done that way in a lot of the world.

Almost all of what I was cutting in those days was sterling silver and maybe a little gold. I also set a lot of gemstones and diamonds using freehand sharpened gravers.

Little by little I kept adding to my tool collection (Which now numbers over 400 gravers after 37 years!) and discovered the Crocker sharpener. This tool made it much easier to sharpen, and then a few years later GRS came out with the power hone. This made it easier yet. Now there are new tools coming out from another company - that I just received to test. From what I've seen so far, they are going to be the best yet!

It's an evolutionary sort of thing. Some can jump in at the very height of the technology, some at the mid-range, and some at the very basic level... there's nothing wrong with any of those choices!

One branch of engraving that you might try - and this might give you some results that will alleviate your frustration a bit - is the "Bulino" style. Already having experience with scrimshaw, this should give you some immediate satisfaction because in some ways they are quite similar. Granted, this method will not give you the scrollwork, relieved backgrounds and inlays that you've been seeing posted - but it can be comparatively easily accomplished with nothing more than hand pushed gravers. On it's own, it is a "sub-specialty" that makes for exquisite work when done properly - and by itself, that technique alone could make someone a decent living...

When the GRS GraverMeister first came out, I can remember that the few engravers we had in California at the time all said that using one was not "real" hand engraving! Funny thing though, after it had been around for a few years I visited some of the shops. No one had one out where you could see it, but if you looked hard enough - almost everyone had one hidden somewhere under a bench - though they'd never admit to it) You could tell by the gravers laying out on the bench... some didn't have handles on them... But still no one would ever admit to using one! (Mine is serial number 378, and still functions just fine)

Now "the worm has turned" so to speak, and the guys who formerly denied it - are all using power assisted pneumatic tools. The tools have evolved a LOT, since the old GraverMeister - especially in the last 6 years. There are two main advantages to using these modern day tools - the learning curve is cut, and you can produce more precise work much faster. Of course faster equals more money, if you are doing it for a living. If not, if you are doing it for hobby, just relax and work your way into it a little at a time. It shouldn't be a race, it should be enjoyable.

Don't let the "MacDonalds mentality" of having it ALL right now infect you! By the way, I don't ever eat at fast food restaurants. Never have. Don't own a television either... but that's just me.

Brian P. Marshall
Stockton Jewelry Arts School, Stockton, CA - USA
instructor@jewelryartschool.com - 209-477-0550

 

[Billzach]

Just read your thread and thought i would let you know i,ve lots of power tools, gravermax, power hone and about everything a engraver would ever want, including a 10x10 shop with heat and air, phone, tv, sofa, etc...But now the important part...when i started carving coins ten years ago, my vise was three wood screws for holding coin down, a lens out of a junk movie projector for magnification, gravers make from concrete nails, a small chisel and a small hammer and done my work in a unheated 4x6 out building..this was before i retired, i had a well paying job, but didn,t want to invest in tools and such until i could see a future in it..my first tools cost less than $3...my practice plates were buffalo nickels, cost of these were about twenty five cents per coin , very cheap practice plates.As time went on i invested in about $50 of store brought gravers, head visor, etc.after about five years later i invested in a gravermate, power hone, etc.Then i built a engraving shop, went to a gravermax and so on..My first tools which cost less than $3 make me a profit, now that i look back a huge profit, my first carved coin sold for $15, not bad on a $3 investment.My $3 investment ten years ago make me enough thur the years to allow me to have what i,ve today in engraving tools..so speaking from my ten years of engraving coins, is to make due with what you got, engrave coins, lighters, etc, take your profit and buy better tools and yes if a old ky hillbilly like me can do it, you can too..Now i,m going to give credit where credit is due, it goes to Sam Alfano, after taking a class at grs with Sam about 5 years ago, my work improved enough that my carved coins started bringing 2 and 3 times what they were selling for before i took the class....[ps] i still use two hand push flat gravers on every coin i carve, i may carve as much as 50% of the coin using a push graver..

 

[Tpazz]

Santo,don't throw in the towel yet.I too am a beginner,I started with a push graver and found it difficult,
so I tried a hammer and chisel and I'am having alot of fun with it.Right now I am only doing
strait lines,curves and circles.I am keeping it simple till I become consistant.Keep your goals simple and
attianable and you will see results.Maybe A Beginner's forum can be started if enough interest is shown.

 

[JJ Roberts]

Santo..I think Brian summed it up pretty darn good. I started out with a hammer and a couple of chisels..found a machinist vise at a flea market. A friend of mine had a 16lb. jeweler's vise, he sold me for $50.00, I also had a Crocker sharpening device..kept adding on as the years went by. I can see how you can get overwhelmed by looking at everybody's work and seeing all these wonderful tools that we have access to today, but don't be discouraged, and Don't Give Up! If you could find someone in your area that could help you that would be a big help. We are here to encourage you..keep us posted.

Yours truly,
JJ Roberts
School of Artistic Engraving
Manassas, VA
www.angelfire.com/va2/engraver

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Santo

My mother’s favourite expression was “Anything worth doing isn’t easy; otherwise everyone would be doing itâ€

Looking at others work should be inspiring as well as a learning tool. It shouldn’t be discouraging. Will you ever reach the giddy heights of some of the work shown on this forum and others? The answer is that you may not. After all, time is not exactly on our side.

However, in saying that……who cares!!!! Your not in a competition with anyone else and engraving, like anything else you have done in life should be fun and enjoyable, or yes, you’re right…throw the towel in and concentrate more on your skrimming.

At the end of the day you can take accumulate all of the advice, books, videos, tools etc and even have a master sitting on your shoulder, but………you still have to sit down at your engraving bench, with a tool, and make it work, by yourself. No one else can do that part of it for you.

There is a very famous photo of Harry Krell sitting by a window in his workshop. Rested on his knees is a sandbag holding the part he’s engraving and in his hand there is a graver with a handle made of an old broom stick. The work he did is beautiful.

There are no special tools or techniques that will do it for you. Only practice. And when your sick to death of that, practice more.

Just remember none of the old masters have the choices that we have today. They sharpened by hand and eye. They were lucky if they had any kind of magnification. Their tools were in most cases hand made. It actually doesn’t matter if you use a 90,110,120 or whatever graver, so long as it’s sharp and cuts without breaking every 30 seconds. Square graver, onglette, flat who cares so long as it works. A lot of what you’re reading on the forums are peoples personal preferences that they have developed over years of experimenting and trial and error. In most cases there is no right or wrong, just what works for you.

Enjoy each small victory as it comes. A well sharpened tool, a clean cut, a well formed scroll. Start with the 90 degree graver as it's easy to sharpen.

Here are 4 things that will give you almost everything that you need to know to learn how to hand engrave good work.

1. Meeks book…for drawing, technique and inspiration.
2. Neil Hartleips book on basic firearms engraving. For technique and basics
3. Lynton McKenzie’s first video on engraving for technique and hand sharpening using stones
4. Use mild steel practice plates as they give better resistance to the tool. I personally found copper to be a dog to practice on.

The rest is up to you. Just make sure that you’re enjoying it.

Best wishes
Andrew

 

[Brian Marshall]

Santo,

I would add red brass sheet (sometimes sold as "jewelers bronze or brass") to the list of cheap and relatively easy to engrave materials - especially for hand push engraving. Try it both annealed and hard. Do use lubrication and a strop occasionally.

Brian P. Marshall
Stockton Jewelry Arts School, Stockton, CA - USA
instructor@jewelryartschool.com - 209-477-0550

 

[John B.]

Hi friend Santo.
Please do not allow yourself to become discouraged.
Andrew gave you a lot of very sage advice, as did Brian.
Andrew started less than two years ago, without much help, just a couple of books.
And New Zealand doesn't have engravers, supplies, equipment available around ever corner.
As he said, you are not in a foot race with anyone.
Please take joy in the little victories of cutting a nice line and slipping less than you did yesterday.
And remember, it's always three steps forward, then you slip back two.
But if you keep going you will win and move forward.
To name just a couple of greats like Ron Smith and Robert (Bob) Swartley.
They both mostly use push gravers and hand sharpening and will tell you that they had to work hard at learning their art.
Please, just don't expect too much of yourself too quickly. It takes time but is worth it.
Best regards, John B.

 

[Ken Hurst]

I agree with Mr. John re. the guys who use only hand tools --- to that list I would also like to add Winston Churchill and Fracassi. I close with "your focus is your reality" As has been mentioned, you get what you practice. Those endless hours of practice will slowly but surely get you there. Don't regret your slips and mistakes IF you learn from them. Lets say you are guarenteed 1000 screw ups and you've already done 500 --- well you are half way to becoming an engraver. After all, we all learn from our mistakes ( I think someone has already said that). In short, don't give up. Ken

 

[sword]

santo- I too am just starting out. I too can't afford power assist equipment. here is some info that the others on this site and the fega site have given me. I hope it helps.
GRS- great for for push gravers and power assist info 1-800-835-3519
Ngraver- had better luck with hammer and chisel info from them 1-860-823-1533
gravers cost between $6 and $11 each, hammers $12-$50, handles $3-$24 Though alot of hammer and chisel types make their own (very easy to do) sharpening stones $10- $125, make do vises $10 and up
good engraver vises $200 and up,sharpening fixture $35-175, power assist units about $450-$3000 though the advise from this site is save for awhile and get in at a mid price one . These prices are for new equipment try and find some used This info is just what I have found so far and I am new to engraving also so do some research and then ask specifc questions on this forum before you buy. Good luck KEEP trying.

 

[sam]

Santo: If your gravers are sharpened properly, you'll probably have a better success rate with hammer & chisel than push graver. Hammer & chisel is simply easier to control than pushing. Not saying you should abandon pushing, but again, you can expect less slips and screwups with hammer engraving. A few hours spent with another engraver can also be extremely helpful. The first engraver I ever saw working was E.C. Prudhomme, and I made many advancements by simply watching him engrave.

I can understand your frustration as I've been-there-done-that myself. As others have said, you'll find that pneumatic tools reduce the learning curve by 95%, and coupled with a class or time spent with another engraver, you can be off and running in very short order. / ~Sam

 

[Jim-Iowa]

Santo from a guy who had not yet advance to your level, Hang in there guy!
Paitence and perseverance does not come easy to some people. Me for instance!
I'm one of those guys who used to get frustrated and throw hamers and tools when things were not going well. Or get too big a hammer for the job I was doing and do more damage than good. Or refuse to try?
I grew up in a family where my father and 5 of my 6 brothers were all excellent mechanics.
I being blind in the left eye and left handed did not have the eye hand control to do what my mind was telling my hands to do. I find now I can accept the fact that I'm slow,but can do what I want to.
One of the hardest lessons I ever learned was to turn out the lights and walk away. And come back after I calmed down. The funny thing is more often than not after coming back things literally fell in place.
Don't give up, be paitent, don't be afraid to take a break, but do go back and try again!
You owe it to yourself to know the satisfaction of doing well what you want to!

 

[Joe Mason]

There has been a lot of good advise in this thread. We all have our frustrating days. I have a lot to learn about engraving and hit a brick wall often. I am fortunate to have a few engraver friends that will point me in the right direction. They want tell you everything you need to know, but give you enough get you started. There are a lot of hammer and chisel engravers and I think this is a good way to start. I would suggest that when you can improve on your magnification. It is all about seeing what you are doing. The digital cameras of today can get in as close as your magnification. Learning how to draw is very important. You must practice drawing. It maybe harder to learn drawing than tool control. As Sam said, time spent with an engraver would be valuable, and a beginners engraving class will get you going. Good Luck

Joe

 

[Santo]

What can I say? Thank you all for your generosity,understanding, support and encouragement. I will try hammer and chisel and Bulino -- which I really like anyway. I do tend to let my expectations get ahead of myself which only sets me up. I do have a Crocker which does help - alot!

How would I set up a craver for hammer use? Any special specifications -- length, angle, heel etc. -- and, what kind of graver point do I use for Bulino work?

You guys are great and I am grateful for this forum. And -- I promise to relax and have fun!!

S~

 

[jimzim75]

Hi Santo,
You have a point about us tool heads and what we talk about.
It tends to be power this and power that. I still use push gravers for some things.
They just can't be beat for feel of the metal. With my hand push favorites
gravers, I do tend to lower the face angle form 50° for power to 45° or even
42 1/2° just to reduce back pressure and to save my elbow.
Lift angles are the same usually. I will in future try to make note of
push graver angle at the end of an email.

 

[monk]

god, if i had a buck for every time i swore to quit this insane crap ! and i came close, but a guy named roger bleile paid me a visit one day. i don't recall how he found out about me, but he spent maybe 2 hours or so at my place. mostly just trying to encourage me to continue practicing. he gave me a few tips, but more importantly- the incentive to continue. i talked a couple times with ray viramontez, and also mr james meek, on the phone, but highly valued conversations nonetheless. they mirrored rogers' advice. "you have come this far-- why would you quit now ?? mistakes-- i just spent an xtra 45 minutes on a zippo lighter this very night. 45 minutes i wont get paid for ! why? i screwed up ! 45 minutes to cover a mistake . am i going to quit engraving ? hell no !!!!!!!!!
i'm going to try and quit screwing up.