Quick Change or Traditional?

[jmcutting]

I am getting ready to order a series of new gravers from GRS but am curious what ya'll think about QC vs. Traditional Gravers?

-justin

 

[Tim Wells]

What are you using them in? Are you pushing them by hand or are you using an air assisted tool? If you are doing the latter I'd get the quick change to save the task of shaping the end to fit your Lindsay or GRS handpiece. After all they're the same price and it would take years to wear one down to the nubbins. I just orderd several QC gravers last week for that reason.

 

[jmcutting]

I am going to start by hand, I was told it was best to learn that first before going to air assisted. Just wasn't sure if there was a big difference between the two? Is the QC handle as sturdy as the Traditional setup?

-justin

 

[fegarex]

The QC handle works well for hand engraving and the QC gravers sure save a lot of work. If you are going to use them for hammer and chisel you might have to make some sort of holding device but you would for the long ones as well. If you decied to go to air assisted, your gravers will be ready for that.

 

[jmcutting]

Thanks fegarex, I am getting ready to order a ton from GRS and just want to make sure I start off on the right foot.

I am getting the following, I'd appreciate any advice or comments on if I am starting with the right stuff?

Standard Block with 30-piece attachment set

Complete Dual Angle sharpening system

Thermo-Loc starter kit

Pin Kit - Standard Vise

Short Third-Hand Solder Station

GRS Quick Change Tool System - Handle - 3 holders

Extra QC Holders - Package of 10

Engraver's QC Graver Kit
QC ONGLETTE- 2/0, 1, 3
QC FLAT- 37, 38, 39, 40, 42
QC ROUND- 51, 52
QC KNIFE- K1, K2

QC Tool Trays, set of 4

​

Thanks,
-justin

 

[fegarex]

A lot of this can be personal preference but it looks pretty well covered except for some squares. I use a 90 degree square for a good majority of my work. They are usually fairly cheap and last a long time. Get another package of QC holders. You can NEVER have enough of those. It makes life so much simpler too.

 

[jmcutting]

I guess I was assuming that on GRS' web site the flat gravers were equivalent to the squares. Does GRS not sell Square Gravers?

GRS Gravers Link

-justin

 

[fegarex]

Go toward the bottom of the page. The Glensteel gravers will work for you. You use a square on "edge" so to speak. You can also use them as a flat but the ones made as a flat are a better way to go.

 

[jmcutting]

Thanks I'll order a few of those too.

-justin

 

[KCSteve]

Since I just did something similar (except my ever-indulgent wife bought me a powered setup ) I'll second the recommendation to get some more square gravers. I'm waiting for a couple I ordered to come in so I can make one a 120.

Unless by 'pin kit' you mean the Super Pins I'm not sure you need it - the 30 piece attachment set is pretty good.

Don't forget some practice plates! I need to stop on the way home to see about getting a shear - all I can get around town are strips / squares / sheets of metal and I don't currently have a good way to get nice clean squares.

One cost saving I was able to make was just getting the dual-angle fixture - my flat lap machine is good for sharpening gravers as well as shaping / polishing stones.

 

[jmcutting]

You said you just got a powered setup... now I was told by someone I consider a master engraver to skip the powered setup and learn by hand first. So I am trying to get the best setup I can for the money and learn all I can.

For my practice plates I bought a sheet of copper but I too have been using Tin snips. I would be curious how you get along with the shear?

-justin

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Justin

I want to make one thing perfectley clear in this reply, and that is, this is my own personal opinion. Others will have a different point of view according to their beliefs, training etc and I don't want to stand on anyones toes that has given you advise already.

There is a big difference between the two methods. Similar technique in so much as the way you hold the graver etc. With hand push you have to develop the muscle memory and control of the tool on a much longer learning curve than with a powered tool because your hand/wrist is providing the power. A powered tool takes a lot of that away which gives you a shorter learning curve because the tool provides the power. You also have hammer and chisel work which means the small hammer provides the power. Useing hand tools like hammer and chisel and hand push gravers is a lot cheaper financially way to learn. You can certainley start there (and stay there if you want to of course) Or if later on if you want to (and have the money) go the powered road. There are many choices.

Now that is a very simplistic answer as a lot of variables come into it. Your ability to learn, amount of time you devote to practising, design, artistic ability and a whole host of other things.

Just be aware of exactly the differences between the two and what you are getting into. There is nothing wrong with the hand push method and it is still widley practiced throughout the world. However air assist/powered tools were invented for a reason and are very popular as well.

There is no "right", "better", or "correct" way in terms of powered or hand tools. There is only tools and what you want to do with them and how you use them.

I'm not suggesting or discouraging you from any particular method. Just be aware of what particular road you are going down.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[KCSteve]

Justin,

Hit the Cummings Tool store on the way home last night. They had several choices in shears but at first it looked like a 36" was the smallest they had Finally spotted one last 6" one on the shelf. Haven't had a chance to try it yet but in general a metal shear gives you the kind of cut you wish you could get with other methods - as long as you don't try to exceed its limitations. This one should be able to handle pretty much any light sheet metal.

Adding my totally inexperienced perspect to Andrew's comments, I think that you'll learn the art of engraving better going your way. With hand powered engraving you're much more involved because you have feel the forces involved (since you're providing them).

However, I think I'll engrave more than you will. With the powered tools you just have to learn what point and technique gives you the line you want. Then it's just a matter of letting the tool do its job.

When I cut a line I set the point of the graver and tip it down into the metal. Rock the pedal forward and let it bite down into the metal, then lower the tool to the heel angle and guide it along the line. More power cuts faster, less power gives me more control. Right now I watch my chip to make sure I'm getting the line width I want (at least as far as consistency). As long as I keep the point sharp things just slide along.

You might want to try out a powered system when you get a chance - they're fun!

 

[fegarex]

Since Justin and Andrew brought this up, I'll put my 2 cents in as well. I think the "learning curve" of tool control is reduced dramatically with power tools. I know that in a class, I can have students doing pretty decent scrolls and borders by the end of the week. Now, learning by hand isn't a bad thing at all. If you can do it by hand, going to air assisted will be a breeze. It can also be a matter of economics. If you are on a tight budget, learning by hand is much cheaper. Also, if you are just doing it as a hobby, the cost is less. However, if you think engraving is in your future, getting air assisted tools as soon as possible will make life so much easier. If you find that engraving just isn't in the cards for you, the equipment can always be sold. There is nothing wrong with any way of engraving, just giving you some options and my opinion.

 

[Jon C. Dake]

Hey Justin: Like Andrew this is just my own personal opinion. As someone who is still learning this art form, I can tell you that I cannot even fathom trying to learn how to do this using a hammer and chisel, nor can I imagine being able to engrave with any reasonable result using a hammer and chisel. I think that most, if not all, of the schools in the U.S. teach engraving by use of power assisted tools. That, of course, is not to say that you cannot learn how to engrave using that method, after all, the Italians do some of the most exquisite engraving in the world and most of them use a hammer and chisel and optivisors and there are some engravers on this forum that create some incredible work using that method. I think that your frustration level may be a great deal higher using that method and your learning curve will most definitely be much longer. If you end up buying a good air assisted engraving tool and end up not finding this your cup of tea, you can always sell it and probably recover the majority of your investment. Air assisted tools make learning this art form a lot easier and more enjoyable. Good luck!

 

[jmcutting]

Thanks for everyone's input... The Engraver who I have spoken with is a TCAA Member and he has said that if I want to learn the best is to begin with hand engraving. I was about ready to get a Lyndsay system when he told him to not jump the gun. I understand you can learn however you want and that going straight to the air graver would probably work fine. I'll be honest I want to learn from the best and if he tells me to hold off then well I'll hold off.

So for now we'll play with it by hand!

-justin

 

[Big-Un]

In my most humble opinion, using power assist will shorten your learning curve a bunch. You will be able to concentrate on your techniques much easier and your frustration level will be much, mush less.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Justin

Go for it. You sound as though you have everything well in hand. Make sure to post photos of your progress. It's quite exciting ordering the tools and waiting for them to arrive. Good luck on your new adventure

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Peter E]

Justin,
As A novice myself, I would strongly recommend taking a class if at all possible. That way you will get some experience with the latest tools and also would be in a better position to decide if it is something you want to stick with and make the financial investment for whatever system you decide on.

Good Luck,
Peter