SAA Work Holding Question

papart1

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#22
the full description is on Steve's product web site........it can be used on any degree of graver. I use his 116 alot and after the heel is finished as you like, you place the graver flat on the fixture and add what essentially a second heel only on the backside of the existing heel, it's like dubbing the point only better. I hope this helped.
 

Big-Un

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#24
Bill,I'm sure I purchased the fixtures from Ray Viramontez it's been forty plus year's I know what I purchased from Ray Phillips,did Ken say where he got his set of fixtures? J.J.
Before passing, Ken showed me his fixtures and he got them from Carrol Rowles. I have Mr. Rowles address, but if it's a clone from Colt's Custom Shop, then I believe Mike's set would be the better buy as he has adjusted and tweaked it for multiple applications. One item Ken had from Carrol was a flat plate that fit in the top vice holes and used as an arm/hand brace to draw directly onto the item while in the vice. I certainly could have used that a few times in the past!
 
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JJ Roberts

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#25
Bill,I found Carrel Rowles address 5117 Browns Mill Rd. Rustburg, Virginia 24588-2574 Phone 434-528-4400 Maybe I did buy the fixtures from Carrel I purchased so many tools over the years it hard to keep up. J.J.
 
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Big-Un

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#26
Bill,I found Carrel Rowles address 5117 Browns Mill Rd. Rustburg, Virginia 24588-2574 Phone 434-528-4400 Maybe I did buy the fixtures from Carrel I purchased so many tools over the years it hard to keep up. J.J.
Understood! That's why I try and keep all business correspondence and casual information in one little book. It started out in my small sketch book but I decided I needed a bigger sketch book and kept the other one for all other information (such as my FFL passwords every THREE MONTHS!!)
 

MikieDu

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#27
Because of the way this special "Bulldozer" geometry strengthens the graver. Bulldozer is the term phrased by its creator, Otto Carter. It's a simple but enlightening expansion on the old practice of "dubbing" the point.

As I described earlier, the entire cutting edge (at the face) of the graver is "dubbed." Commentary in this forum has dealt repeatedly with the virtues of "dubbing" the point to strengthen that most delicate part of the graver.....dubbing goes way back in our engraving history....look that up first if you want a detailed explanantion.

Intead of simply dubbing the point, "Bulldozer" geometry dubs the entire cutting face, strengthening the graver even more. That, the advent of carbide based gravers and some judicious use of cutting fluid make it possibe to engrave many of the hard metals we formerly had great difficulty with. Moreover, we are now faced with many new-age metal compounds that our predecessors never had to engrave...we need every advantage we can muster to stay ahead of that curve.
 

JJ Roberts

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#28
Mike,I've tried dubbing my graver's with no success so I just ordered Otto's Bulldozer dubbing fixture, thanks. J.J.
 

MikieDu

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#29
It's a very precise and delicate little operation - Frank Hendricks talked about it when he presented the very first FEGA Seminar back in 1984. He was taught to "dub" his point by the Germans. Yes, "dubbing" is a strange term, but so was "Speitzer." That's what he called his graver geometry....although I don't think we used the term "Graver Geometry" back then - Don Glaser coined that phrase much later.

Dubbing has always beens so mysterious because it has always been a hand/eye/feel/touch technique. Otto Carter's "Bulldozer" fixture is a contolled method of creating the dubbed Point - or more accurately in this case, "dubbed cutting face".
 

MikieDu

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#30
I recently had to engrave a Model 70m Winchester action for a John Bolliger Custom .470. I really had a great opportunity to test traditional dubbing to the Bulldozer. The differences were dramatic in the way the Bulldozer cut the kind of deep lines and gold inlay channels I needed in the hardened action to match up with the rest of the metal parts.
 

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MikieDu

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#32
Dubbing is not graver geometry specific, it works (stengthens the cutting point) on all V and onglette shaped gravers.
 

FANCYGUN

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#33
OK so let me get this straight now.....

DUBBER is DUBBING if I read this correctly

Mike
Ever get the feeling we are the only two remembering all the talks we had with Frank? I do find the bulldozer technique interesting and will have to try that on a few of my 105's just need to calculate the angle for the second BLUNT heel which should not be rocket science.

Stay safe gang
 

MikieDu

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#34
Yes Marty, but we are relics of the art. The 105 is finding favor with lots of folks, it's a good medium V graver with lots of good attributes. Still, when I really need to get into really hard and resistant metals, the 120 is my go-to graver....and dubbing makes it even better.
 
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FANCYGUN

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#35
Like most I have just been dubbing the tips of my gravers with varied results. but going up the sides sounds intriguing and worth the try
I've been trying a 115 graver on my last job just to see why many people seem to like it and it wasn't bad. Had a lot more control than a 120 and a little more flourish than the 105 So just another tool for the arsenal
 

MikieDu

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#36
I do recall Frank's seminar and what he said about sharpening...dubbing was an after-thought of his demonstration. He gave a a quick sharpening demo during the first FEGA Seminar - this was 1984 +- and many years before the advent of any manufactured sharpening device.

Like most engravers of the time, Frank sharpened gravers by hand and instinct. When he finished the brief sharpening execise that day, and while he was still talking about it, he did something with the point of his "Spietzer" (German for graver) and went on to cutting. Then he stopped to explain what he had done with the point. He continued on by demonstating his "dubbing" technique He held the sharpeing stone in one hand and held the point of the graver perpendicular to the stone with the other. While looking intently at us over the top his glasses, he made a small "W," the legs of which were no more than 1/8", i.e., 1, 2, 3, 4. He explained that dubbing made the point much more durable - but he warned that it was a very small thing , and that you must resist the temptation to over do it; that to do so would render it inneffective.

Then, once again, he went on to engraving...and for those of you who are new to the art, please imagine this crazy scene: Frank cut scrolls for us while standing at his work bench. Even more perplexing to this small crowd of engraving neophites, was that he looked through a single (one eyed) magnifying lens suspended on a articulating arm - while chasing the graver with his hammer and chisel. I really tried, but I was never was able to do that. Later on I saw Lynton McKenzie do the same thing during his video presentation....still can't do it !!
 
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MikieDu

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#38
One of the first things I was taught in jelwery school was that there were no substitutes for Ruby Stones. I have one in my jewlery bench and one at both of my engraving benches...they have all been with me since the late 60's.
 

SamW

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#40
"One item Ken had from Carrol was a flat plate that fit in the top vice holes and used as an arm/hand brace to draw directly onto the item while in the vice. I certainly could have used that a few times in the past!"

Big-Un, here is the hand rest I got from Ray Viramontez many years ago...would be easy to duplicate and is a useful attachment.

RV hand rest.jpg RV Rest.jpg
 

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