Scorpers

[James Miller]

James, in your post 'the use of a scorper' would I be correct in assuming that your 'scorper' it's what we 'yanks' call a flat?

"we used to soft brush the facetted star faces using a soft bristle hand brush and french chalk as an abrasive," It doesn't seem that the chalk would have any effect on the metal if one uses a soft bristle.?

One other question, do put a heel on your half round gravers?

Thanks for your patience.
Kevin P,

Hi Kevin,
Yes I think what I call a scorper is the same as your flat. My flat scorpers are in all widths from 0.5mm. up to 4mm., some are wider on the cutting face than the rear but most are parallel widths. When starting a new scorper, I will grind the cutting end as I have shown in a previous posting on this thread, but I also anneal, harden and temper the scorper cutting end before final sharpening and use. I temper the scorper to a light straw colour, if that makes sense.
As to the use of chalk and a bristle brush, it is not really an abrasive as the intention is to try and save the sharp facetting appearance of the bright cutting with a scorper, the idea is to have a near mirror finish on the cutting face of the scorper which leaves a bright cut on the metal, which was silver on the KCB shown.The chalk is just like using rouge to finish, but this method retains the sharp edges, polishing with an electric mop rounds off the sharp cut edges on the facet.
My half round scorper are straight, with no heel, if I have ever needed to cut textures inside a deep hollow shape I have annealed the tip of the half round and shaped it over a steel bar to give a curved blade, then I re harden, temper and reploish the half round face with 000 emory paper as before.

Here is a photo of a CBE badge, the texture under the enamel was cut with a polished half round scorper. I spent the first 15 years of my experience in this trade making these orders of UK insignia.
James

 

[James Miller]

I think that Jim Sackett's example of a scorper brings up a point to understand. While I have always referred to Jim's scorper as a scraper, I am sure that in the place he was employed they called it a scorper. One does not forget things like that.

In studying engraving terminology I have found that sometimes a particular shop, plant, or even foreman uses a term that is not universally known or accepted outside. This makes standardization of terminology even more difficult but I have been trying anyway.

As an example, many years ago I was head engraver at an award manufacturing company. We did lots of die work there. In that plant we made dies and hubs, the hub being the male counterpart to a die. Later on I heard other die makers refer to a hob meaning the same as a hub. I finally came to understand that it is known as a hub in the jewelry and award plants and a hob in industrial and coinage plants.

Relative to my earlier post, have any of you British trained engravers heard or read the word scauper used to mean the same thing as a scorper?

CRB

Here in the UK, Jim's tool is sold by toolshops as a scraper. When I was an apprentice the term scauper was used for half round scorper size and type tools that were used for cutting softer materials like wood and ivory, these tools had ground out hollows above the cutting face, they look like miniature half round wood chisels. I have some hidden away somewhere, if you want I could post a photo.

Also early in my career I was the head goldsmith in what was called the Insignia department of a company linked to the Crown Jewellers, where we made regalia for the UK and other countries. We had a drop stamp workshop for pressing out the many badge designs. The designs were cut into a steel die and for hollow stampings we made our own what you called "Hubs", we called these the "force".
There are many different names for tools used in our trade.
James Miller FIPG

 

[Jim Sackett]

Thank you Roger

You are absolutely correct about different terminology in different shops. The engraver in one shop I worked at referred to an onglette as a fish belly. He used it to cut script lettering on engraved wedding invitations. Nice hairlines and nice deep body strokes. It made the lettering really stand up when stamped on paper. I try ed it but went back to my old faithful 90 degree square.

Jim Sackett

 

[Marrinan]

"Here in lies the Rub" with trying to create a directory or glossary of terms used in engraving. The definitions of terms are a daunting task and Roger has made a huge effort and is to be commended. Creating a dictionary is a time consuming and expensive project. Researching words requires that they be traced to their origin. This task is, in the English speaking world, has been left to the scholars of the oxford English dictionary which is the definitive record of the English language. Doing a word and picture search on the net will produce a wide variety of entires. Rogers are there as are the pages of this post. The Oxford is a subscription based reference and I do not have access. The oldest reference I could find refers to flat and round chisels used in creating wood print blocks. It appears it was used in the manner which James has described only on wood rather than metal. -Fred

 

[DKanger]

I think that Jim Sackett's example of a scorper brings up a point to understand. While I have always referred to Jim's scorper as a scraper, I am sure that in the place he was employed they called it a scorper. One does not forget things like that.

With all due respect, just because someone in a local shop calls something by a certain name, that doesn't mean that's what it's called in standard terminology. In the automotive field, we referred to a 24" screwdriver as a BFS. You can probably go into any auto shop and they would know what you are talking about. However, that isn't it's technical name.

In studying engraving terminology I have found that sometimes a particular shop, plant, or even foreman uses a term that is not universally known or accepted outside. This makes standardization of terminology even more difficult but I have been trying anyway.

Terminology may differ from country to country, but using local "pet" terms only serve to cloud the issue. Everything has it's proper technical name. Pictured below are some scrapers. The larger ones are technically named #6 machinist scrapers. The smaller one is a #4. These are the technical names as found in any industrial supply house in the USA or Canada. I don't know the difference between Jim's scorper and my scrapers.....his must have come from the UK.

Terminology reminds me of the old gun trader's saying, "How come my stuff is crap and your crap is stuff."

 

[Marcus Hunt]

I don't know the difference between Jim's scorper and my scrapers.....his must have come from the UK.

Nope, looks like a scraper to me!

There are all sorts of terminologies which are local to one group of people, for example where the barrels join a shotgun action Purdeys call the 'detonating', Hollands call the 'fences' and Kell's workshop (where my father worked and learned his terminology) called them the 'bumps'.

When I met with some of the other English engravers a few weeks back one chap referred to 'flanging'. So as he wasn't a gun engraver I asked him what he meant by that. He said "Rolling the graver on it's side so it makes a bright cut." Now, we came from two different industries but are both engravers and we use the same term for this so it must make it into Roger's 'engraver speak dictionary'. But try looking it up in an ordinary dictionary and you'll find there are many different meanings for flanging but the engraving term isn't among them. A strange thing semantics, don't you think?

 

[Roger Bleile]

"With all due respect, just because someone in a local shop calls something by a certain name, that doesn't mean that's what it's called in standard terminology."

That was my point precisely.

"Terminology may differ from country to country, but using local "pet" terms only serve to cloud the issue. Everything has it's proper technical name."

I would venture to say that you can enter the workshops of many engravers and find unique tools they have made with no proper technical name.

The fact is that local terms have seeped out into common usage through the travels of the craftsmen, books, and the internet as we are discussing here. When choosing terms to define for the glossary I have chosen only those in common usage and those found in the glossaries of books related to engraving. When it comes to tools, I have mainly relied on the descriptions of the tool manufacturers and suppliers. This includes the word scorper as found on various vendor websites in the UK.

CRB

 

[Roger Bleile]

When I met with some of the other English engravers a few weeks back one chap referred to 'flanging'. So as he wasn't a gun engraver I asked him what he meant by that. He said "Rolling the graver on it's side so it makes a bright cut." Now, we came from two different industries but are both engravers and we use the same term for this so it must make it into Roger's 'engraver speak dictionary'. But try looking it up in an ordinary dictionary and you'll find there are many different meanings for flanging but the engraving term isn't among them.

Marcus,

How does this sound: FLANGING: A term in use by British engravers which is understood to mean the technique of rolling the graver on it's side so it makes a bright cut. American engravers usually refer to this technique as "flaring" a cut.

Roger

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Sounds good to me Roger, and a lot better than the description which came up on Google a few minutes ago LOL

 

[Crazy Horse]

Dkanger, the top two "Scrapers" and the bottom one are typacally tools used in machine shops for deburring purposes. I don't believe they would have a use in the engraving field.

In most machine shops I've worked in it was/is common practice to take a worn triangular file and grind off the cutting teeth until smooth and then use as a "scraper" for deburring.

 

[Jim Sackett]

Files make good burnishers too!

Jim :banana:

 

[DKanger]

the top two "Scrapers" and the bottom one are typacally tools used in machine shops for deburring purposes. I don't believe they would have a use in the engraving field.

With all this talk of definitions, I pulled out my old reliable dictionary that I used in college back in the 60's.
Webster's Dictionary of the English Language.....Unabridged.....Encyclopedia Edition. This monster is printed on paper about the thickness of a cigarette paper and is about 6" thick. I enclose relevant definitions in the appropriate evolution::

Scrape,
1. To rub the surface of with something rough or sharp; to mar the surface of by the abrading action of a sharp instrument.

Scraper,
2. Any of various instruments for scraping; specifically, (b) an instrument, generally triangular, for scraping and cleaning the planks, decks, and masts of ships.
4. In engraving, a three sided cutting tool, fluted, used in taking off the bur left by the etching needle or dry point.

Scorper,
1. same as a scauper.
2. a jeweler's gouging tool for working in a depression, as in engraving or piercing metal.

Scauper [probably a variant of scalper] a tool used by engravers for clearing out open spaces between lines. <only definition given>

Scalper,
1. one who or that which scalps.

Scalp,
6. To lay bare by removing the upper covering or layer.

 

[Crazy Horse]

The only "scalpers" I've ever seen were standing outside the baseball stadium selling over priced tickets to the game. Better get that dictionary updated. ;~)

 

[Kevin P.]

Your explanation makes sense James.
I use mops (what we call buffs) frequently in metal work and know how quickly the detail could be destroyed. I just didn't think the combination of soft bristle and chalk would have any effect.
Regalia is seldom seen in the US. In my case an uncle was some kind of Mason and had lots of stuff including a sword which we kids played with.
Thanks for the details.
Kevin P.

 

[Kevin P.]

Marcus I've noted that regional accents in England seem to be making a comeback. The mid-
atlantic used to be favored. It's always seem odd to me that a country the size of England would retain so many regional accents. Of course a Britisher might say the say of the US.
When I was growing up, other kids would remark on the accent of my father and mother which I never noticed until it was pointed out.
Your comment on semantics takes me back to university and English literature. In one of Ben Jonson's plays there's a discussion of alchemy and the use of 'cant' and 'jargon' which were made up tongues to prevent outsiders from knowing what was going on.
I think it persists in your talk of H & H (flanging) using a certain term and another firm using a different term for the same (or close to the same thing) to keep shop secrets.

Or as they used to say here in the US: Macy's doesn't tell Gimbels it's business.
Kevin P.

 

[rod]

Jim,

I have to agree with DK, I have been using that tool for sixty years. I am sure it does the work you describe but in Scotland and elsewhere it is called a triangular scraper, or if you prefer a three cornered scraper, as apposed to " flat scraper", and is usually a machine "fitter's" hand tool. Yours would traditionally be used to scrape white metal or bronze journal bearings to be a precise fit to, for example a crankshaft, always testing the result by blue-ing the steel crankshaft, and assembling to see where your blued high areas were on the bearing, then more scraping.

Flat scrapers are made from ground smooth files and have a slightly rounded front face at 90 degrees. After smooth honing they are used to scrape flat surfaces on cast iron machine slides, etc., giving a nice pattern to the surface as it is made more accurate, at the same time leaving very shallow ponds for the oil to keep in the surface.

Roger's post and good glossary is gradually narrowing the gap of name recognition.

Marcus, thanks again for your useful expansion on tool shapes. I am about to email you an mp3 of a lovely song by Chris Wood about the Cotswolds, maybe you already know it?

Best

Rod

 

[rod]

Howdy, Kevin,

Since this is a thread about confusions in names, and an international forum, best not to use English and British interchangeably, it will make the skin crawl on Welsh, Northern Irish, and Scots, ie the rest of Britain. Don't worry, legions of history professors and other well informed people in England, and the USA, do it daily. But not Marcus! He is a well informed Englishman and knowledgeable about the other nations that make up Britain.

I do take your point about the multifarious accents and brogues in Britain, it is quite easy to hear a distinct difference in speech within less than a day's walk. It must be a nightmare for other people, having learned English well and then visiting Britain to practice the language. Almost no one in the various nations of Britian speaks the language the way it is taught abroad. Personally, I would not want to see us loose our local vernaculars. By contrast, studying French or Spanish and then going to these countries to practice, the spoken word is pretty similar in sound to what you have been taught.

Finally, a compliment, Canadians and Americans speak english very clearly, to my Scottish ear.

Best wishes!

Rod

 

[Marrinan]

I reviewed a doctorial disertation on the demise of accents. Interestingly, in the US we now all speak televisiones-Those under 60 developed the accents used on televion rather than regional sad but true.-Fred

 

[James Miller]

I was talking to an old friend yesterday. He is Alan Mudd, a retired engraver / enameller. I told him about this thread scorpers and he told me a bit about his work history. He started his work career as an apprentice engraver but one of his later jobs after qualifying, was cutting patterns onto wooden rollers, using scaupers. These rollers were used to print patterns on Sanderson wallpapers. He then joined an enamelling company as an engraver cutting cells and patterns for enamelling. while at this company he learnt the art of enamelling and in time became the owner of the company. Alan has enamelled many of my pieces in the past.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Hi Kevin, Rod is absolutely right about the nations that make up Britain. Personally I hate being called British as I come from England so I'm English just as Rod is Scottish. Basically Britain is an economic and defensive pact and The Act of Union (brought about by a Scottish King when he inherited the English throne) went a long way to stopping us beating each others brains out.

We still have a huge amount of dialects which to a greater extent are becoming more and more celebrated; BBC local radio does a lot to help this. However, occasionally this can become a hinderance to communication. Having a radio news reporter from Ulster or Newcastle with such broad accents does nobody any good if they cannot be understood by anyone except those from the immediate area.

Like Rod says, it baffles me how any foreigner learns English as it's such an obscure language with rules that are broken regularly.