Help, please: Scrolls again

[Otto Carter]

What caught my eye right away was the large amount of negative space around the scrolls and not much within it. Even out your positive and negative space and your eye won't have so many roadblocks.

 

[Omar Haltam]

If #5 were flipped it would be growing off of #1 in the wrong direction.

thanks for the explanation Sam, I will make a note of that.

 

[henningssom]

Yes really good info from Andrew I must say.
This is what I need to hear. What is okay and what's not.
Andrew, I like to do those cuts after I have done the gold inlay.
For me that isn't that experienced, I found it easier to decide on how to go with the leafs once the gold is in place. I can also change a leaf if I want or need to to get the flow right. So not cutting all the way down is just an precaution for me in this state.

Before I cut the background I use to go over the design and check if I should add more to the scene. For instance here I could probably fit in a small scroll or a leaf off some sort.

Thanks

 

[henningssom]

What caught my eye right away was the large amount of negative space around the scrolls and not much within it. Even out your positive and negative space and your eye won't have so many roadblocks.

Humm, now I'm from Sweden... What do you mean by positive and negative space?
Mike

 

[Andrew Biggs]

I understand about the gold

The small scroll........I would leave it out now. You have reached the point of no return. I would finish the engraving and chalk it up to experience

Positive space is your scroll and leaf etc. Negative space is your background.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[speeedy6]

Lots of information on this thread about scroll design. I'm about halfway through '' Advanced drawing of scrolls'' and all this information aligns right up with the book. It's very useful to see it used in realtime.
Thank you to all that has posted, Mark

 

[henningssom]

Okay so I looked at Andrews sketch again and yes the design needs more scrolls.
I managed to squeeze in two more when I was cutting the channels.
Right or wrong and Andrew will probably go bananas on me here but I like to think that if I could save it I should try.
All in all, I am in my learning curve and if adding these scrolls don't help the design, well then I know that.

The best

 

[Patrice Lemee]

I love that this thread is full of very good info and advices.

But at the same time, very discouraging for a beginner who still can't draw a horse that doesn't look like a cow.
Never thought that scrolls were that complex, but then again, most things are usually are when you dig a little deeper.

 

[henningssom]

True, scrolls are a whole different chapter.
There are some many rules you have to consider to make it work.
However the rules which I think is the most important it "the laws of nature" so to speak.
You have to follow that. If you are close enough to the border or filling the area with leafs or not is a different kind of rule in my book.
I have thought about this.
Take knife making for instance. 20 or 30 years ago a knife should look a certain way, have a certain flow and features. Today a blade can point in one direction and the handle in another yet can still be the most expensive and popular knife on the market and setting new standards.
So I believe that the "laws of nature" is a must rule, the other rules are good to follow but can be bent. I hope I'm right here but that is what I am thinking.
Here is my updates for today.
The best

 

[Jonathans]

I love that this thread is full of very good info and advices.

But at the same time, very discouraging for a beginner who still can't draw a horse that doesn't look like a cow.
Never thought that scrolls were that complex, but then again, most things are usually are when you dig a little deeper.

I had the same reaction as Patrice! Scary thread.

 

[speeedy6]

Patrice,
Don't forget drawing and lettering and inlay's and bulino and layout and surface preparation and design and ..... It just keeps going and going. I guess at one point some people just give up and some keep their head down and plow through it until they look up and see something nice that they've created. I'm still plowing. I hope you do to.
Mark

 

[Patrice Lemee]

Thanks Mark, I understand and that is exactly what happen with knifemaking. Plowing until you are finally able to make your vision a reality. Takes a lot of work. Here is a Quote from Ira Glass I love.

“Nobody tells this to people who are beginners, I wish someone told me. All of us who do creative work, we get into it because we have good taste. But there is this gap. For the first couple years you make stuff, it’s just not that good. It’s trying to be good, it has potential, but it’s not. But your taste, the thing that got you into the game, is still killer. And your taste is why your work disappoints you. A lot of people never get past this phase, they quit. Most people I know who do interesting, creative work went through years of this. We know our work doesn’t have this special thing that we want it to have. We all go through this. And if you are just starting out or you are still in this phase, you gotta know its normal and the most important thing you can do is do a lot of work. Put yourself on a deadline so that every week you will finish one story. It is only by going through a volume of work that you will close that gap, and your work will be as good as your ambitions. And I took longer to figure out how to do this than anyone I’ve ever met. It’s gonna take awhile. It’s normal to take awhile. You’ve just gotta fight your way through.”

I guess what discouraged me the most was Andrew's posts, they pretty much sounded like this was a complete mess and there I thought it looked pretty good myself. Better than anything I can draw myself so what is the point of trying if I am so far from even an ok drawing. I guess my mistake was thinking that this critique was for a beginner and not for a very experienced engravers.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

I guess what discouraged me the most was Andrew's posts, they pretty much sounded like this was a complete mess and there I thought it looked pretty good myself. Better than anything I can draw myself so what is the point of trying if I am so far from even an ok drawing. I guess my mistake was thinking that this critique was for a beginner and not for a very experienced engravers.

Hi Patrice

I'm not sure why you would be discouraged by my posts. Critique was asked for and so I gave it.

The advise is for anyone struggling with design and layout. It is by far the most important part of good engraving. The cutting part is the easy bit.

Good words from Ira Glass. Learning good taste as well as a critical and discerning eye are essential for any artistic endeavour.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Andrew Biggs]

So I believe that the "laws of nature" is a must rule, the other rules are good to follow but can be bent. I hope I'm right here but that is what I am thinking.

Hi mike

Yes, the rules, if you want to call them that, can be bent..............But before you do that you must understand the basics and be able to implement them. Then you can start developing ideas from that point. Unfortunately to many people think the rules and understanding the basics stifles their artistic sensibilities. In fact it does the opposite. It enhances your understanding of what you are doing and aids the creative design process...........Good design is timeless for a reason.

I have probably said more than enough for this one so I will leave you with one last thought.

The red arrows are the way your knife flows. The blue area is where you have placed your engraving..................does your engraving enhance the flow of the knife? and does the flow of the knife enhance your engraving?

If the answer is no to one of those questions then you have a problem. If the answer is no to both of those questions then you have a major problem.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[henningssom]

Hi y'all!
I wouldn't be posting here if I didn't want your opinions.
I am new at this and want to learn the right way.
And as I said before, once I master the rules, then I can find my own way and style.
It's funny, I still think my first sketch serves the flow of the knife best. But it was too oval and I understand that.
I guess I got too focused on the engraving scene and to get the scrolls right so I forgot about the knife. But it is tricky. To fill all spaces with scrolls, leaves and what not yet maintain or enhance the flow of the knife.
The best

 

[Patrice Lemee]

Hi Patrice
I'm not sure why you would be discouraged by my posts. Critique was asked for and so I gave it.

I have probably said more than enough...

I am the one who is sorry Andrew , I did not mean that I did not like your advices. To the contrary, it is priceless to beginners like me. I am very grateful that you are so generous with your hard earned knowledge.

I surely will ask for your critique when I am ready...if I can conjure up the courage that is.

Sorry for the thread hijack Mike, won't happen again.

 

[henningssom]

Patrice,
I don't mind you being here, on the contrary.
This thread is good and helpful for us all.
The best

 

[henningssom]

So today's progress.
Background stripping.
The best

 

[Andrew Biggs]

I am the one who is sorry Andrew , I did not mean that I did not like your advices.

Hi Patrice

There's no need to be sorry. We all go through this stage of learning. It can be frustrating and disheartening sometimes.

It's only with time and practice that our work improves.........that and 10,000 mistakes. If we could all get it straight away then it wouldn't be much of a skill.

The trick is to keep at it, keep observing and keep practicing until you have that uh-hah moment when it all comes together.

I guess I got too focused on the engraving scene and to get the scrolls right so I forgot about the knife. But it is tricky.

Yes, it is tricky and that is what makes it worthwhile. It's just a matter of bringing each of those individual elements together so you have a unified and balanced design that sits well on the canvas. It sounds simple enough and in reality it is.............it's just getting to that point that can be incredibley challenging

Cheers
Andrew

 

[henningssom]

Background stripped and stippled.
Moving on to shadings.

The best