Help, please: teach me to inlay?

[Dani Girl]

Do you mean the inlay if you want to anodize it has to be thinner around the edges?

So the cavity would get deeper towards the middle.

And it's influenced by the thickness of what you're inlaying into.:thinking:

 

[SamW]

Danae, I don't know how much niobium oxidizes but one thought is you should clean the wire thoroughly just prior to inlaying for best conductivity.

When I do raised inlays of an animal or other shaped object I like to sculpt the steel inside the inlay outline to at least roughly match the shape of the object then I proceed with the lines and undercutting as normal. This gives a good bit of the shape of the object prior to any further sculpting needed and makes for a more uniform thickness of the inlay and I find that when I am using cross cut teeth and thinner wire this helps to avoid thin sculpted spots where the steel might poke through. On a blued item these little steel protrusions stick out like the proverbial sore thumb.

 

[peteb]

Danae: I mean that my experience is with thin cross sections. Probably your experience with inlays of niobium will be that it should be thicker so it stands proud above the base metal and the surrounding base metal can be electrically isolated (stopped off) from the niobium, that should give good results. I also feel that niobium has a very open grain structure so that rolled material, with its closed grain, gives brighter colors than engraved or even polished surfaces. These abraded surfaces seem to "eat" the light in a way that titanium does not, titanium having a very "tight" grain, keeping in mind that the colors are refracted and not reflected.

 

[Dani Girl]

Thank you Sam

I haven't even considered raised inlay yet. I want to get good at flush (it appeals to me a bit more anyway)

Even just a little touch of wire like a border can add a lot to a piece. Another artist I have been admiring is Consoli and his inlaid and bulino engraved sky backgrounds. Very moody, very cool

I have a knife to finish and two rings that want engraving, one deeply.... I think I'll practice on some brass first. Then back into the inlay as soon as i can

 

[Dani Girl]

I tried today to inlay some golf for the first time. It went into the groove alright but I think it stuck to the brass flat chisel I tried to cut the overhang on the inlay off with.

I did a 116 groove and then dug a really small flat into the sides several hundred times. Also where the groove was deep enough I undercut with the flat first then dug the flat in.

Should I leave the bits that stuck there? How do I fix this?

 

[SamW]

You can either pull out what is there, revisit your undercuts to be sure they are good and try again, or...

take your graver or a very small punch and tap lightly the ends of the gold that has been inlayed so as to set it back a few thousands of an inch thus raising that end of the inlay slightly above the surface of the parent metal. When you tap in some replacement wire that will give you the extra gold you will want to insure you fill the groove and make an undetectable transition from one piece of wire to the next.

 

[Dani Girl]

I am going to revisit theiry duggets youtube video talking about using a draw plate and try to thin my wire down to fit those grooves. I will see how happy the middle section is to fall our and decide whether to leave it there or not.

I remember somewhere on the cafe was a discussion about inlaying whiskers and obscenely fine lines just cause I can. ...that will be a good thing to find.

Oh and definately re watching Samw Fega inlay dvd which is really great and I would recommend, its called multi-color and iron inlay.

 

[Dani Girl]

First time using gold. Got it to stay in the tiny pupil. Silver wire on the eye lid didn't stay completely ...not surprisingly. I tapered the groove to nothing and stayed with 28 guage wire all the way along. I tried to cut the end on an angle so the wire tapered a little... but I guess it was a test in how much it wouldn't work.

I tried cold blue on the inlay and surprisingly it blackened the W2 steel, the silver, and the gold... I didn't think anything would touch 24k.

Interestingly the Caswell stainless steel blackener darkened the silver... made the gold purple... and did hardly anything to the W2 steel. The purple polished off the gold easily but the darkness on the silver was reasonably durable vs my sunshine cloth.

I did this piece 14x5mm eye squiggled onto some scrap metal (W2) which is file steel often used for blades and takes a nice hamon.

Google hamon if you haven't heard of it and look at the images.

The method used was round bur for the gold cavity and gently jamming a 90 degree v into the round to make teeny undercuts. I then laid the wire on top and couldn't get it to go into the hole so I sat it on top and bashed it into gold foil and cut the top off and miraculously some stayed in the hole. Outlined and detailed.

I am using stones dry... should i use oil? I have Wd40, Camellia oil, ballistoil, tap magic, car oil, vegetable oil. Do you soak them or just dab some on the piece you're stoning?

 

[SamW]

Danae, sometimes when working to inlay with very small wire and especially tapered cavities like you mention, I will take a larger wire, hammer it flat to about the thickness I need and then cut with a hobby knife or single edge razor a strip of the "wire" the size I need, tapering to fit. I also anneal the "wire" again after hammering flat so it is soft for the cutting and inlaying.

 

[John B.]

Danae,
You are on the right track and Sam Welch has given you some good advise and help.
When you get your gold in and flushed down there is an easy way to see if it is going to stay put.
Cover your inlay with clear Scotch or shipping tape and burnish the tape down with a finger nail except the end of the tape.
Lift the tape up sharply and pray that the gold stays in the grove. Easier and cheaper to fix any problems before shipping to a customer.
This is how I test my gun inlays to make sure they will stand up to the shock of firing the gun.

 

[Dani Girl]

Is that to much gold left on top because of too large a wire? Or is it ok?

Outlining it was challenging. I think I'll make a new undercutting tool out of carbalt.

I kept going with the thin wire until it was definately too small to fit the groove, then pulled back up on i til it was holding well and filling the groove, cut it off and levered the end back up with a pointy bulino graver.... then i put the larger wire up next to it and started pounding that in. I feel like the pneumatic handpiece hardly hits hard enough to set the gold. It's the only thing i have ever worked on that rips out of the groove like it's sticking to the graver. While every other kind of metal just pulls out as a whole piece.

What angle are you supposed to be holding the undercut tool into the groove... as low as you can without hitting the other side?

Thanks everyone.

Danae

 

[SamW]

Last question first...probably about 70 degrees. You want just enough undercut to hold the inlay but not at such an angle that the wire cannot get over into the far side of the undercut.

The jagged edges along your inlay are made by the punching in of the undercut and are showing the tool marks. To avoid this, I make the cavity deep enough so that when I punch in the undercuts along the bottom of the cavity and lift metal along the edge of the cavity, some portion of the cavity vertical wall is still on the same level with the surface of the parent metal. In other words the undercuts don't lift high enough so that when you dress the edges back down smooth the tool marks show along the edge of the inlay.

Doing those very thin lines are a challenge. I have found if I make a fairly small chisel and then just press in the undercuts by hand without a hammer I get a much smoother look. It really does not take a lot of undercut to hold the gold once set and trimmed down. I have used this push method to inlay lettering and other such with wire in the .003 or .004 inch size.

For a lot of "undercutting" where I don't want to disturb the surface of the metal around the inlay I use a carbide scribe and actually scribe or scratch the undercuts into the steel. Two or three passes seem to work for me. One must be careful not to let the scribe jump out of the groove or you will spend a lot of extra time eliminating the mess. I hold the scribe in my right hand and then use my left thumb to help push and control the work.

I don't quite understand about the metal ripping out. As for the pneumatic hammer, I use the airgraver set for strongest strokes to set small wire but find it lacking for larger stuff or for any harder material. If you don't get the inlay metal fully set with the initial striking of the tool, the metal will work harden and not be as easy to set. And if there is any bounce to the parent metal this just multiplies the problem.

I always use a piece of gold or other inlay material that has enough to fill the cavity and leave as much on the surface as I need. If it is a flush inlay that means just enough to be trimmed off while insuring the cavity is completely filled side to side and lengthwise.

 

[Dani Girl]

Finally got the new drill press into the shed and it's going to be great. My scope wraps around it fine and it's not too far off the floor, it would be better if you're getting one for it to go down further as that would be more flexible, but this is fine for me.

 

[mitch]

just at a glance, your bench is going to have to be waaaaay more cluttered if you're ever going to make it as an engraver.

 

[SamW]

Yes, and a clean floor to boot! Tish Tish Tish!

 

[Bluetickhound]

The lip gloss (I guess that's what it is!) the keys and the remote are killing me!! I love folks' workbench photos....

 

[Dani Girl]

Yep, it's lip gloss, and yep... I use it for it's intended purpose... but 99% because it feels nice.

I tried again today. A little $10 practice folder mum can wear on her keychain or something. I'm happy with the way one piece of wire is staying in the displacement undercut with teeth in the bottom.

But the teeth in the big leaf are not hanging onto the silver. Either I'm not hitting it hard enough or the teeth aren't big enough or on the right angle. Does what I'm doing look right?

 

[SamW]

The teeth look right but could be just a little closer together so there is not so much blank metal showing. And perhaps a bit deeper. Also looking at the first photo, with the face angle on your chisel, you might get better results at more angle as the face looks almost vertical though that may just be the photo. However, that being said, I have always had a problem getting silver to stick using that method unless it is really small wire. I use that cross hatch method for pure gold and go back to the single line method for other metals.

If the wire you are using is well annealed and not very large, and there is NO bounce to your set-up, a good hit with the punch should set it.

I would first go over the teeth making them deeper, take a flat graver and skim across the top so you remove any errant bits of steel sticking up above the rest, and try again. If you still have trouble setting the silver go in and add teeth on those bare metal areas between the current teeth. This would be good experience and you just might make it work to your satisfaction.

 

[John B.]

I agree with Sam, Dani,
The bur lines in the leaf inlay are WAY too far apart and exposing too much uncut metal that your silver can not get a grip on.
This just work hardens the silver over these flat areas when you punch it and levers it out of the adjoining teeth.
No vibration or bounce in your workpiece, .999 Fine silver fully annealed, teeth closer together and you will have no problem.
This also applies to most of the harder, lower KT. colored golds. Enjoy seeing your work and great pics.
Good on ya.

 

[tsterling]

To me, the teeth don't look right. I agree with TOSam that you need to put them closer together. But, presuming you're right handed, you're cutting your 45 degree (second run of cuts) in the wrong direction - your flat graver needs to be opening up/raising the teeth. The angle you are using looks to be shoving the teeth back down.

Tom