Help, please: Two questions

[DKanger]

This is a casting of a capbox from an English sporting rifle. Sorry, it's the best picture I can get.

1. The engraving detail will be lost when I file and polish the piece. What is the best way to preserve it for later transfer and duplication?

2. Any ideas on what is in the center of the lid? I don't think the scrolls terminate into thin air. Suggestions? The gun is pre-Victorian.

Dave

 

[fegarex]

Dave,
Perhaps I can help with one of the questions anyhow...
You are already on the right track. Make smoke pulls or castings of what engraving is already there. The more the merrier. I don't know what would have been in the center but it was usually some sort of rosette. Try looking at similar period rifles to see what they had. Not sure how much other engraving the rifle would have but I do restoration on double shotguns and there usually is a "pattern" carried through the whole gun to give you an idea.
It's hard to tell from the photo just how bad metal/engraving is but a lot of times it is almost better to start with a "clean slate" and do the whole pattern over than try to restore what little is there. It can be very difficult to duplicate another's engraving strokes exactly. Trying to repair shading lines that start and stop can be a pain. Removing all the engraving and doing it all over may actually be much faster.
The best way to describe it would be to have someone run in the sand and then you try to follow and keep your foot prints exactly in the foot prints they made.
Rex

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

In my opinion this engraving is the sun, and in its centre it is the face of the sun.
I think I've seen this kind of illustration, it is the way we draw the sun when we are young kids, only better of course.
I think you can find this design as it is not a unique design in my opinion.

I ad some I found on the internet

Hope this helps, arnaud

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

I used my SCI tool in Photoshop, but the photo is to bad to find out.:big grin:

anyway, still the sun in my opinion, but I'm very curious about it.

arnaud

 

[DKanger]

Rex,
I coated the piece with magic marker and then rubbed it back with steel wool to get the detail in the picture. I will definitely make a smoke pull from what's there and then fill in the blanks. My other idea was to draw in the detail with a .5mm pen and then scan it in my scanner for further printing and drawing. The buttplate is a decreasing spike with a wavy line and ticmark border. Some small scrolls in the middle and fading, triangular scrollwork at the heel. The finial on the trigger guard is a pineapple.

Arnaud, I had originally thought it was a sunburst, but under magnification thru my visor, it is a repeating pattern of alternating long scrolls and fronds. What looks like the sun's face is mostly casting swarf. There is a circle in the center which could be some type of rosette, but I can't make out any details there. The outside border is just a circle of repeating scrolls, of which only a small portion is visible in the lower right of the picture.
I will save those sunbursts because I have to build another of these guns next year. This one has a December delivery date.

That may seem like a long time, but whenever I have one of my back attacks I go for 2-3weeks or more without being able to work. I have post-herpetic neuritis, residual nerve damage as a result of having had shingles in my back. It flairs up whenever the temperature drops below 65 degrees and air conditioning doesn't help it much either.

Dave

 

[Dulltool]

I can sure see a face in the center...... eyes, nose, mouth.

 

[lesholmes]

Dave,
I found the new version of a smoke pull on this forum. Coat the engraving with dry marker, lift it off with clear shipping tape. It makes a beautiful image.

Good luck with your project. Les Holmes

 

[Marrinan]

I might suggest a groteques-they appeared on a lot of things in the time period-Fred

 

[monk]

if this is for a client- i'd first discuss what expectations that person had regarding the job. are they looking for something authentic, or just some "old fancy stuff" ?

 

[Marcus Hunt]

No, it's not the sun, it's a large stylised 'flower'. These patterns are often used to fill round spaces; anything from a screw to a cap box. The centre of the flower would be a chequered circle.

 

[fegarex]

I would agree with Marcus. If anyone would know English engraving, he would.
I guess I am confused on the casting part. I assumed this was an epoxy casting of a part you had. I take it this is a metal casting? Anyhow, make sure you have a good image of it. I would think finishing it off smooth is still the answer.

 

[DKanger]

I would agree with Marcus. If anyone would know English engraving, he would.

Yes, I agree. I was hoping he would respond. While only traces of the center circle remain, it makes sense.

I guess I am confused on the casting part. I assumed this was an epoxy casting of a part you had. I take it this is a metal casting?

Yes, this is a new build not a restoration. The parts are all metal investment castings.

I would think finishing it off smooth is still the answer

It's a necessity. There is no way to preserve any casting detail as clean up to remove all casting flaws obliterates it. Using what was there just saves design time, plus I have a number of originals with patterns that will easily transfer to this engraving style. I am not yet accomplished enough to peck out complex designs.

Dave

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Sometimes, when a flower is very large, a smaller one is often placed within it so it doesn't make the outer petals/fronds too long. This smaller flower always seems to be of another design and can be simple petals or more complex. The cross pin on a modern shotgun or double rifle often shows this. Hope this helps.

 

[DKanger]

Dennis,
You've been watching too many cloud formations.
I see the face too, but it's just a trick of the lighting.

Dave

 

[fegarex]

I think I saw the image of Jesus on it.. Put it on Ebay!

 

[DKanger]

Marcus,
The inner circle is visible and the outer lines terminate at the circle, but I cannot make out any details within the circle. I think Sam has a variety of rosettes somewhere and perhaps I can fit one of those in the circle. The checkering you suggested might also compliment the checkering found on the pineapple finial. Now that I think about it, there is also a small floral circle around the lower buttplate screw and a similar design could be applied there.

 

[Metalshaper]

Dave,

Have you tried aluminum foil? Used this a couple of times in the shop.. when trying to bring up the markings on an old gun barrel??

Sometimes you can get a rubbing, by using a simple sheet of aluminum foil from the kitchen. use a soft artist's eraser 'pencil' or a 'sish-kabob stick' to burnish it on the part.. the foil kinda moulds in and holds the image, if it has any depth at all??


Might help?? Might not?? No promises ,,but it may bring up a bit of extra detail!

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Dagwood