Help, please: Very FRUSTRATED with graverpoint breakages.

[peterventer]

Hi anybody/ everybody, i need help again, i have endless problems with brittle graverpoints,
i,e. tungsten carbide/ c-max/ grs x-7high speed steel/as well as glensteel. I am convinced the problem lies with me since i have experimented ad-nauseum with different face/heel angles,but still they chip off or fragments when starting the cut. I have messed up on some of my guns but somehow managed to cover it up. ( i have only been working on my own guns )
The gun i am working on at present is a Ruger Vaquero, and the angles i have settled on is 55/15, since that gives me at least a little respite. I welcome all help/ critigue
Pete.

 

[Ray Cover]

Ok there are many things that COULD be the problem but If I have my guess I bet its cutting technique.

Now Rugers have a rep for being hard sometimes but if this is happening to you on various projects I bet your cutting technique is to blame. Your probably not using the left hand to feed to work into the graver. Instead you are probably trying to "drive" it around the corners with your right hand.

Both hands have to work together but each has its own job to do.

The right hand holds the tool and tries to maintain that tool at one angle in relation to the work. For example for me it is most ergonomic to keep the tool pointed at the 10 oclock position. The tool STAYS pointed at that 10:00 all through the cutting of a project. The only movement the right hand is responsible for is the up and down that adjust the angle of approach and controls the depth of cut.

It is probably trying to turn the corner with the right hand that is putting the point in a bind and snapping it off.

The left hand is responsible for turning the vise and feeding the work into the graver.

Both hands have to start and stop together. When the left hand is not turing the vise the right hand is not cutting.

Ray

 

[Donny]

Ray is right on the money...The only other thing that could be happening is that your getting the graver tooooooo hot when you are sharpening it. Over heating could cause your graver to become brittle.

Justa thought...

Donny

 

[BrianPowley]

Ray is spot-on. The chisels are designed to cut a straight line only---you rotate the work instead (Ok,ok---there's is some latitude there, but very little)
Sounds like your hand/eye co-ordination is causing you the grief and possibly trying to cut too deep.
I'm also working on two Rugers simultaneously. One is a SS Vaquero. The other is a New Model Blackhawk .45 Colt(Blued steel)
I completely cut the entire cylinder on the Blackhawk without resharpening---using a DeCamillis HSS sharpened 90 deg w/55 deg.face & 15 deg. heel.
...and don't forget this: Thomas Edison tried over 14,000 experiments to invent the incandescent light bulb. He said," I knew I would eventually succeed, because I ran out of ways to fail."
Try to look at these set-backs as another way you can't do it....

 

[peterventer]

Hi RAY and DONNY,
I really do appreciate you two coming to me in my hour of need so quick, i have been guilty of the ( crimes as charged ) and will work hard
at getting better. Bless you both.
Pete.

 

[jerrywh]

Try putting a very small flat or round on the bottom of the graver. It will help a lot. GRS recomends this on their C Max gravers. I have been engraving a bunch of weatherby actions and barrels and if it weren't for that I would be sharpening about every three cuts. Also you might go to a 60° face. A wider belly angle will help some also.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

To expand on what Ray has said..............Hold the cutting hand steady by holding your elbow to your side in a firm but relaxed way. Feed the work into the graver tip and keep your wrist steady and not moving all over the place. Up and down is generally OK but not side to side.

Think of yourself as a lathe bit in a tool post that is steady and dosn't move............the work feeds into the lathe bit (graver)

As you become used to this you can relax your elbow more and move it out if you want to find it's own natural position

Cheers
Andrew

 

[peterventer]

Hello there BRIAN,
You blokes are so knowlegeable, must be masters at this game, nonetheless, i do thank you all wonderfull people for the help and above all for the willingness to help others at the drop of a hat,
GOD BLESS YOU ALL.
Pete

 

[peterventer]

Hi mr BIGGS & JERRY;
Remember you mr. Biggs from a first time help request, thankyou much, bless you, also to you Jerry, points very well taken, hope i can repay one-day. Thankyou to all those that have replied, and still will. It is good to know that all you blokes are in my corner.
Thank you oncemore,
Pete.

 

[Ray Cover]

Pete, WIll you be coming to the engrave in at Scotts? I notice your in Georgia. It would be worth the trip to get some face to face help working out eh kinks.

Ray

 

[me2cyclops]

no help really just popping in to say HI neighbor
been working in winder a bit lately

 

[tim halloran]

Peter: You Need To Make Sure That The Piece Your Cutting On Is Mounted Solidly, So There Is No Movement Or Vibration Occurring, Especially With Carbide Tooling. It Does Not Tolerate An Interrupted Cut Very Well At All. Make Sure You Dubb The Point On A Carbide Tool, As It Will Drastically Enhance Tool Life.

 

[JJ Roberts]

Peter, Now that Ray's got your left hand working with your right hand,let me ask you about weather you sit or stand while engraving.I like to stand over the work when I cut the backbone of the scrolls,because I find I have more control and the scrolls come out nice and rounded with no flat spots.Cutting the counter clockwise scrool was never a ploblem but I had a big problem cutting the clockwise with both H&C and power with a lot of graver point breakage.OK now this how I now cut the clockwise scroll backbone,I now cut them from the inside out going in the count clockwise direction.Good advice from Ray Brain and Donny hope I did't confuse everyone with my way of engraving but been doing it this way for years and it works for me. J.J.

 

[Barry Lee Hands]

1.Roll the tool to the outside, like an old truck going around a corner.
2.Make sure the belly is short, too long a belly causes tortional stress which will break any tool steel.
3.I break gravers 3 or 4 times an hour, get used to it.

 

[Ray Cover]

That's actually a good point (pun intended and driven home) that Barry makes.
We all break points to some extent. There is no perfect graver geometry or material that NEVER breaks or dulls. Breaking a point from time to time is expected in a lot of materials but you shouldn't be breaking points every 3 minutes. That's excessive.

Ray

 

[Idaho Flint]

Another thing to watch for is vibrations in the piece you are engraving. If your piece is not anchored down good, and is vibrating while you are engraving, that can cause tips to break.

Mike

 

[DKanger]

they chip off or fragments when starting the cut.

One other thing that I don't think has been mentioned, especially if you are using foot control. Make sure your graver is at a dead stop when starting your cut. There is a tendency to hit the gas too soon and the tip will break upon hitting the metal. Likewise, if your graver is idling at all it will do the same thing. I often catch myself not releasing the pedal fully between cuts.

Graver at dead stop.
Tip on metal
Then hit the gas to begin cutting.

 

[Jim P]

I was having that same problem the other cutting a stainless revolver and I found that part or my problem was that as I set the graver down on the metal I was dragging it backwards a little getting lined up and several times that chipped the tip before I had started the cut. That was with a carbide graver. I went to a glensteel hss and stopped backdragging the graver and the problems went away

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Carbide is a strange material and if you can avoid using it I would. I don't think it always gives the best results but for some of you guys working on really tough handguns you don't really have a choice. The exception in my book is C-Max; this can give outstanding results but it must be polished. Without polishing to a mirror finish the graver grabs the steel and will snap the point very easily. When polished it just gradually dulls.

Expanding on Ray's advice, try to make sure you are 'following the point' of the graver. It is very easy (especially with tight scrolls and if you follow Barry's advice about rolling the graver out slightly) to very slightly kick out the heel of your hand. This results in cutting with the edge of the graver face rather than the tip. The resulting crudeness to the cut is often misinterpreted as "heel drag" and the sideways stress on the point can (and will) make it break easily. The old hand push engravers used a much longer heel than we do today and there is exquisite work out there with no heel drag but it is down to technique because there is also some very crude stuff too.

Depending on what you are engraving I would actually say use the outward rolling of the graver with caution. If you are engraving firearms you want to cut black. If you flange (roll) the graver you'll begin to cut bright. This is fine on jewellery if it's the effect you're after but on guns and rifles you really want to avoid sparkly, shiny cuts at all costs. Good luck!

 

[mrthe]

Have you try to dubbing the point? it reduce the point broke you only need make very microscopic 90ª face on the point of the graver,when you have sharp the graver put it in your hand and hold it in vertical (90º) upper you more fine grit stone,pass it on the stone very gently 2 or 3 times,hand you will have dubbed the point ,try it.