silverchip
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I am waiting on a pay check so I can buy Marcus' book & DVD before I try to make a piece with English Scroll to show. Hope it shows up soon!!!!
Critique Request My “arnaud fine scroll†practice [photo]
- Thread starter Arnaud Van Tilburgh
- Start date
Arnaud Van Tilburgh
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Willem, you mean in my last two designs? I don't see them or I do not understand what are inward scrolls.
arnaud
Arnaud Van Tilburgh
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Dave I'm sorry if I bother you with something I should have started buy buying Marcus book.
arnaud
arnaud
Willem Parel
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Marcus and others, here are two designs taking notice of what I learned so far without Marcus book
The first is still sort of Nautilus Scroll, the second should be more like it should for Fine English Scroll
arnaud
In the lower design, the little scroll next to the starter scroll on the right side and the third little lower scroll counting from the right.
silverchip
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Not bothering me at all, I just think I will wait to try this.I have heard so many different spins on English Scrolls that I want to see what Marcus has in his tool box. I am sure it will be worth waiting for me. I like your work and willingness to help others, Designs don't just happen, It takes everyone contributing to the debate. When it comes to Specific shapes and styles, it may be even harder to have the discipline to learn them exactly as they are supposed to be done without going outside the borders, That is why I want to see what Marcus' instruction has to offer.
Arnaud Van Tilburgh
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Let me explain why I didn’t buy Marcus book on Fine English Scroll yet.
In my opinion Marcus is the FES expert on this forum.
I almost did read all the treads and reply in the Café from the start, and there isn’t that much about FES. Now and then when one showed his / her work titled “English Scroll”, Marcus offered his good support telling it wasn’t real Fine English Scroll.
I even found a photo of Martens attempt on FES having Marcus coming in to give advice and making corrections.
So to me, no wonder I was thinking FES is something like other English traditions done the same way for centuries, that you probably only could master when being a Englishman.
I thought it had that many rules, no one else than Marcus would be able to Master it.
I even remember a story Marcus told him about how long it took him sitting next to his dad (Ken Hunt), before his dad told him it looked good.
So my plan was to wait buying Marcus book, until some of you showed your practicing based on the book and find out that it was possible to have Marcus blessing.
I also saw a tread started by Bram Ramon showing Fine Belgium Scroll, so I thought, “the hell with Fine English Scrol”l, I just try something that looks nice in that style, what is in a name.
Some of you did like my first attempt, so probably the rules I gathered till now aren’t that wrong. However it seems I don’t even understand what are inward scrolls
Still as most of you did read Marcus book and know more rules, so it is kind of stupid trying to cut something like FES without that book. That is why I didn’t want to trigger Marcus by giving it another name.
arnaud
In my opinion Marcus is the FES expert on this forum.
I almost did read all the treads and reply in the Café from the start, and there isn’t that much about FES. Now and then when one showed his / her work titled “English Scroll”, Marcus offered his good support telling it wasn’t real Fine English Scroll.
I even found a photo of Martens attempt on FES having Marcus coming in to give advice and making corrections.
So to me, no wonder I was thinking FES is something like other English traditions done the same way for centuries, that you probably only could master when being a Englishman.
I thought it had that many rules, no one else than Marcus would be able to Master it.
I even remember a story Marcus told him about how long it took him sitting next to his dad (Ken Hunt), before his dad told him it looked good.
So my plan was to wait buying Marcus book, until some of you showed your practicing based on the book and find out that it was possible to have Marcus blessing.
I also saw a tread started by Bram Ramon showing Fine Belgium Scroll, so I thought, “the hell with Fine English Scrol”l, I just try something that looks nice in that style, what is in a name.
Some of you did like my first attempt, so probably the rules I gathered till now aren’t that wrong. However it seems I don’t even understand what are inward scrolls
Still as most of you did read Marcus book and know more rules, so it is kind of stupid trying to cut something like FES without that book. That is why I didn’t want to trigger Marcus by giving it another name.
arnaud
Arnaud Van Tilburgh
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Willem, thanks. If I got it right, it should be the red ones I changed them.
arnaud
arnaud
Last edited:
Willem Parel
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Willem, thanks. If I got it right, it should be the red ones I changed them.
arnaud
Yes Arnaud, these are the scrolls I noticed.
Arnaud Van Tilburgh
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Willem, to be honest, I do not see what the in red direction is more open on the outside as when growing from the other side scroll.
GTJC460
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I think I'd probably eliminate both and just fill it with leaf and frills.
Willem Parel
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Seeing them next to eacheother I have to admitt Arnaud that it becomes confusing to me as well.
At first sight I immediately saw and felt these scrolls were inside scrolls but looking more and more at them I see your point.
And eventhought the flow in your first drawing looks better they still looks to me as they are inside scrolls but I can't explain.
At first sight I immediately saw and felt these scrolls were inside scrolls but looking more and more at them I see your point.
And eventhought the flow in your first drawing looks better they still looks to me as they are inside scrolls but I can't explain.
Deb Williams
Member
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2008
- Messages
- 22
Marcus: Thank you for your detailed discussion to help us learn and improve.
Deb Williams
Deb Williams
Arnaud, All this time you wasted on & on with your BS get the book and get with it. J.J.
Arnaud Van Tilburgh
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I only noticed this until this morning having the small scrolls on the outside the wrong direction.
I agree that the red ones also just can be a leaf or tendrill
arnaud
here is the correction
I agree that the red ones also just can be a leaf or tendrill
arnaud
here is the correction
Arnaud Van Tilburgh
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
JJ, don't force me on that and I'm old enough to know what is wasted time and what is not.
And no matter how it is named, I now have all the information I need how to do a Belgium version of FES, and after all I'm a Belgium engraver.
To be continued, arnaud
Gemsetterchris
Elite Cafe Member
Marcus Hunt
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Sorry guys, I'm not at all well - think I have flu! Don't much feel up to this at the moment but Arnaud, no the red scrolls are not correct. You had your designs right in the beginning except for the scrolls terminating at the extreme left and right of the design. These scrolls are growing in the same direction as the scrolls they are growing from; they must alternate.
Regarding growth of scrolls, remember they are a stylised plant. If you look at a tree for example, all the branches grow away from the trunk (unless it has some sort of disease or damage which forces the branch to grow back towards the trunk). So it is with scrolls; everything should grow away from the starter scroll. Scrolls which grow back towards the start point are a design no-no when it comes to English scroll. This is relatively easy to pick up on with a simple design but as you begin to get more complicated with a mass of scrolls you have to be careful because one scroll growing "the wrong way" can totally upset the balance of the design as the scrolls that grow from it often point towards the error.
Regarding growth of scrolls, remember they are a stylised plant. If you look at a tree for example, all the branches grow away from the trunk (unless it has some sort of disease or damage which forces the branch to grow back towards the trunk). So it is with scrolls; everything should grow away from the starter scroll. Scrolls which grow back towards the start point are a design no-no when it comes to English scroll. This is relatively easy to pick up on with a simple design but as you begin to get more complicated with a mass of scrolls you have to be careful because one scroll growing "the wrong way" can totally upset the balance of the design as the scrolls that grow from it often point towards the error.
Arnaud Van Tilburgh
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Sorry to hear you aren't well at all Marcus, anyway thanks for your support and comments on my adventure in this.
Here I go, I can't show the outlines, but it is meant to decorate one item.
I think I have the scroll styles correct and a good design to work out.
arnaud
Here I go, I can't show the outlines, but it is meant to decorate one item.
I think I have the scroll styles correct and a good design to work out.
arnaud
Southern Custom
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Arnaud,
Looks like you've made a lot of progress. I hope you can see now what I was talking about in my first post. Looking at the design you worked up before switching around those red scrolls, it looked spot on except for the end scrolls which you fixed. The one thing I think Willem didn't understand and I don't know if Marcus pointed out is that it's ok that those 2 scrolls pointed inward. As long as they don't grow back towards the start, it's fine. They actually add interest in my opinion. If you look closely at that Spiderco the Marcus put up, it has the same inward growing scroll.
I also agree with you that making mistakes while working makes the lesson sink in that much more. I know it has worked that way for me.
Layne Z
Looks like you've made a lot of progress. I hope you can see now what I was talking about in my first post. Looking at the design you worked up before switching around those red scrolls, it looked spot on except for the end scrolls which you fixed. The one thing I think Willem didn't understand and I don't know if Marcus pointed out is that it's ok that those 2 scrolls pointed inward. As long as they don't grow back towards the start, it's fine. They actually add interest in my opinion. If you look closely at that Spiderco the Marcus put up, it has the same inward growing scroll.
I also agree with you that making mistakes while working makes the lesson sink in that much more. I know it has worked that way for me.
Layne Z
Southern Custom
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I see you were working while I was typing. And It appears you are getting this down!
Layne
Layne
Sponsors
