Hand sharpening gravers

[Smallpatch]

OK,
I've looked at Sam's site, looked at this and his students work.

WOW!! I'm in the wrong place.

As most of my engraving is primitive, ( I know, very primitive) and limited on each piece. Is it possible to hand sharpen gravers to do the deed?? Any guidance on techniques and stones would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

 

[GeorgeKhayata]

I did hand sharpen gravers for about 23 years, I was doing very good, but once you try the sharpening tools you will never do hand sharpen again, I only do hand sharpen for special small gravers.
George

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Hi Smallpatch

In answer to your question, yes it is possible to hand sharpen gravers but it's not easy. In fact it's one of those things which took me ages to learn as an apprentice but once you learn it it has the huge advantage in that you can set up the graver just how you want it. The disadvantage is that it can be fairly inconsistant and as the whet stone wears it can throw out the heel of the graver and you'll wonder why it seems impossible to sharpen your tools in a way that works for you.

After 28 years of engraving I finally caved in last year and bought a Power Hone. It works really well the majority of the time and you can replicate the same heel angles time and time again. But I'm not convinced that in all situations it's the best method for me. I stress the 'for me' because others may find different. When hand sharpening it is possible to put on a bias which the individual knows works for them.

When I cut the detonation of a shotgun or double rifle the convex surface proves just too much for the perfect point and consequently I find the point breaking off far more often than when I used to hand sharpen. Maybe I haven't found all the correct angles yet for the dual sharpening system but all I know is what used to take seconds to do now takes much longer. That being said when it comes to setting up gravers for cutting on lock plates or silver engraving I wouldn't now be without it.

cheers,
Marcus

 

[sam]

Smallpatch: Regardless of whether your engraving is highly refined or of the primitive style associated with some early American guns, your gravers must be sharpened correctly in order to cut properly. For many years I used a 3/32" x 4" piece of square tool steel as a guide for heeling square gravers on a whetstone. I would stone the face freehand, but for heel I'd rest one side of the square graver on the guide and carefully swipe it across the stone a few times on the left and right sides of the graver. The closer the point is to the guide the more lift the graver will have. I've always used between 10-20˚ of lift. Symmetry is the name of the game, so if you do this, strive to make the heel each heel facet the same size. Same with the face...stone the face and check that it doesn't angle in one direction. A face of approximately 45˚ is desirable.

A low cost alternative to the PowerHone system is to simply purchase the Dual Angle sharpening fixture w/tool post and use it manually on a whetstone. That will give you much better results than using the hand method described above. / ~Sam

 

[fegarex]

Smallpatch,
I assume by your screen name that you are doing mostly muzzleloading engraving. For working on mild steel and brass you can get by using high speed gravers and sharpening by hand can be done, however a sharpening fixture will help you out. If you get into using carbide gravers a power hone is almost essential. I think anyone that has been engraving for some time sharpened by hand but once the power hone and fixtures became available it was just a matter of convenience and accuracy. I can sharpen several gravers at once and have them all the same. Doing them by hand was a "hit and miss" deal. I end up using my power hone for more things than just gravers. Knives, wood chisels and even for gunsmithing stuff. In fact, I have 2 power hones so I can have different grits on each one. Like all good tools, you wonder why if you really need them and once you have them, you wonder how you did without.

 

[KSnyder]

Smallpatch,
I sharpen by hand with the small 1/8" bit for a rest Sam talks about. I find I get fairly consistant angles one caveat being i hand ground tools 20 yrs. when i operated screw machines where tool rake/angle is paramount. I use a loupe to view the final product. The acid test for me is the cutting, you can tell when a graver /chisel just isn't right , at least I can now. I get good results with diamond & ceramic stones (best quality).
I think most of the serious full time engravers here use the power hone so they get the consistant results they need.
Btw, i been building flinters for about 30yrs. now.
Kent

 

[jimzim75]

Old School Graving

Hi,
I will assume you want to sharpen, in the old tradition way of sharpening gravers.
The musket thing and all. I learned as a diamond setter to use two stones.
The primary was a two grit India stone. This has a reddish fine side
and brownish course side. We would only use the fine side with some oil.
The second stone was a black Arkansas stone with some oil.
The stones were secured to bench top usually with broken burs used like
nails to pin them in one place. For a right hander, that was on the left side
of the bench.Our benches are taller than engraver's benches, around
38" tall. This is to work at eye level when we are sitting and setting.

Trying to remain consistent was the name of the game. We would be
sitting to sharpen the gravers, so the we could watch the angle.
The setter would sharpen the graver by pushing it toward himself while
watching the angle. It usually took a couple of tries before you got
what you wanted. The final thing to do was ram the graver into the bench
to remove any burs. This seem to always be done in the same place.
The old guys had shallow caves.

One of us finally got tired of have slightly curved straight bright cutting
gravers, on the cutting edge. That would be me. I order a Crocker graver
sharpener and found a piece of thick glass to put along side the stones.
This is what Sam is referring to. The glass was a riding surface for the
Crocker.

Then came GRS and this stuff is now dusty and not used. If you wish
to use the method, more power to you. You may find over time, that one
your arms is bigger than the other. A lot bigger.

Jim

 

[Cody]

I have a power hone and wouldn't be without it. IMO, the cost of a PH will be recaptured simply by being able to take the time you would spend learning to sharpen by hand and devote it to cutting. The greatest "sharpening aid" that I think I've ever bought only cost about $10. That is the 120 deg graver. On the kind of stuff we cut on ML's, this thing is like the energizer bunny, it just keeps going and going. On a mild steel plate I did a week or so ago, I think I sharpened my 120 once and that was because it started to dull slightly. If I had cut the same thing with a square, I know I would have broken the point at least 1/2 dozen times and a broken point takes longer to sharpen than a dull one. Broken points are usually caused by operator error but, to me, a broke point is a broken point, it still require immediate attention. All that superfulous sharpening, particularily to remedy a broken point, also makes the face of your graver get bigger and bigger and eventually you have to stop and work it back down again. Just my .02

Cody

 

[Smallpatch]

Sam,

Where can I find this dual angle jig, and how much???

Thanks for your help.

 

[sword]

Smallpatch,
I think what they are talking about is called a crocker sharpener one place to get them is NgraveR company phone # 860-823-1533 thay go for around $40

 

[Don Cowles]

The "Dual Angle" sharpening fixture is made and sold by GRS.

 

[sam]

The Dual Angle is a GRS product. It's definitely not the Crocker sharpener (which I do not recommend).

 

[Smallpatch]

Sam,

I wish I'd read this sooner.... I ordered one from Brownells last night.
Hope I can make it work alright.

Always in such a hurry.

 

[sam]

I wish you'd read it sooner, too. Others might have different views, but I would advise returning the Crocker for a refund. If I thought there was some advantage to keeping and using it I'd tell you, but I really don't see one. / ~Sam

 

[Billzach]

Like many other engravers, i brought a crocker sharpener when i first started engraving and it was somewhat useful to me, but after using another engraver,s grs dual angle fixture and power hone, ii brought a powerhone and dual angle fixture and cut my sharpening time from 10 mins. to less than 1 min..i,m sure there are some engravers on the forum who can take a crocker and get good results..i know a engraver from ark. who uses a powerhone and just holds his graver in his hand and gets good results..

 

[Smallpatch]

Sam,

I've been looking at the dual angle fixture by GRS, but how does it work with out the Powerhone??

 

[Jack Davenport]

Dual angle holder

Hi Small patch: I went through the crocker holder, also a homemade that I used for some time, then I bought the dual angle holder and use long stones lying on a piece of trued flat plate of metal, holding the sharpener with one hand and sliding the stone under the graver. I have complete control this way and doubt that I will buy a power hone. I have taken Sam's advice and am now using the 120 degree graver all the time, also the flat graver with the very small radius for the heel. Sam's turorials on graver sharpening plus the use of the dual angle tool have really been a big help. Thanks again Sam.
Also you should buy the post with the angle holder, you can attach this to any flat surface. Jack Davenport.

 

[sam]

Sam,

I've been looking at the dual angle fixture by GRS, but how does it work with out the Powerhone??

The fixture's base sits on the PowerHone and the fixture (which holds the graver) is lowered onto the rotating lap. A google search will undoubtedly turn up many photos of the sharpening system.

 

[Smallpatch]

Sam,

I understand how it's used with the Powerhone, but I just can't spend that much. Can it also be used with common stones??

 

[sam]

I'm sorry, I misread your last response. Yes, you can sweep it across a whetstone. Just be sure everything is as level and flat as possible for best results. / ~Sam