Critique Request Please critique my scroll design.

[Riflesmith]

Had this kinda come on me last night and thought I'd draw it out today. It's not a stand alone drawing, just a design/development concept. A few honest opinions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

[monk]

the leaf i show here is way out of whack with the flow you have here. i'd change that. place higher up and pointing down

 

[Marrinan]

I always have a problem with leaves that change growth direction for no apparent reason, (Monks point of reference). Also on this same vine that the stem sheathe needs more strength so you can tell what it is trying to convey. just a couple of minor points that could improve overall effect. There are other minor ones but you should be able to search them out. Fred

 

[Riflesmith]

Thanks for your input, I've made a few revisions and I think I may be a little heavier on the negative space than I would like. But I'll cut it and see where I end up. I have a S&W 639 that is like to cut this on.
Again, thank you for your input.

 

[Thierry Duguet]

I think that before wondering about the placement of leaves or about negative space you should concentrate on the curve of the scrolls. I think that the point of drawing on paper is to visualize and sometime transfer on metal what you are doing on paper. If your drawing is faulty your engraving can only increase the defects. The top of your main scroll is too flat, the overall curve is irregular, where you interrupt the curve do not align, there is an obvious bump on the secondary scroll. I think you might consider doing something simpler and work on the sharpness of your drawing.
You are in too much of a hurry and you fail to look objectively at your creation.

 

[Riflesmith]

Thank you Mr. Duguet for your critique. I correct the scroll problems in a subsequent drawing I made for a transfer. Made a transfer and cut the design and decided there is more negative space than I care for. Back to the drawing table.

I thank you all for taking the time to critique my work.
Best regards,
Richard

 

[monk]

better to lay waste to many sheets of paper than to do a bad job on your project. take your time here. something that helped me, and sometimes i still do it-- take an opaque projector and magnify your drawing on a wall. perhaps that way a flaw may be apparent. you can also look at the design in a mirror. this will sometimes reveal an area you're not happy with.

 

[Riflesmith]

Oh, have I laid waste to many sheets of paper.....how many? I cannot begin to fathom! Since I now do most of my drawing on tracing paper it is easier to just flip it over and study my drawings and catch my mistakes. Those mistakes do concern me but this was a first sketch and the experiment was more about filling in the elements than the perfection of the scrolls. I could have spent more time perfecting the scrolls, yes, but that was not my goal, it was to simply work up a design.

I do, however, greatly appreciate the critiques as I very seldom ask others to do so.
Thank you Monk, Thierry Duguet and Fred Marrinan!

Best regards,
Richard

 

[Big-Un]

One suggestion, NEVER sacrifice the quality of one element because it is not your main focus. EVERY ELEMENT OF THE DESIGN IS YOUR MAIN FOCUS! I was yelling because I feel very strongly that an artist should treat every part of the canvas as the best part. I believe that when you disregard a certain part of the design because it isn't important, then the whole design suffers. I've seen it here more than I want to admit. Look at the sketches of the really good engravers here and you will see what I'm talking about.

Bill

 

[Riflesmith]

Bill, you can yell all you want, I can't hear you lalalalalalalalala! Isn't diversity great, we all have our own opinions about how things should be done. I'm not dismissing your point of view at all here, I'm just saying we all have different ways of approaching things.
There is an engraver who is very well known and who sometimes posts pics of his work on the cafe, in fact he is a FEGA master engraver and probably guilded in others. He may be a master engraver but his work tends to be full of flaws and everyone seems to sing praises when he posts his work. Perhaps he is doing the best he can with what he has to work with just as I do, but I don't care for his work. I strive to do the best I can with what I have to work with and in the time constraints that I have and if I have to sacrifice some things for others then that is what I have to do. JMO mind you.
Which is better, to be guilded a master engraver and produce flawed work or to strive to do the best work you can and not worry about whether you are ever going to be guilded a master engraver?
Again, just my opinion.

 

[Thierry Duguet]

Bill, you can yell all you want, I can't hear you lalalalalalalalala! Isn't diversity great, we all have our own opinions about how things should be done. I'm not dismissing your point of view at all here, I'm just saying we all have different ways of approaching things.
There is an engraver who is very well known and who sometimes posts pics of his work on the cafe, in fact he is a FEGA master engraver and probably guilded in others. He may be a master engraver but his work tends to be full of flaws and everyone seems to sing praises when he posts his work. Perhaps he is doing the best he can with what he has to work with just as I do, but I don't care for his work. I strive to do the best I can with what I have to work with and in the time constraints that I have and if I have to sacrifice some things for others then that is what I have to do. JMO mind you.
Which is better, to be guilded a master engraver and produce flawed work or to strive to do the best work you can and not worry about whether you are ever going to be guilded a master engraver?
Again, just my opinion.

I will have to agree with you about your reflection about feedback. When I post my work it is not to read how wonderful I am, as I find it quiet useless even so it is so good for my ego. I do not enjoy hearing about my mistake but I find it useful, one can be blind to one's own blunders and may need a third party opinion in order to spot them out and when possible to correct them.
Feedback is a difficult task, finding a good balance between encouragement and criticism is not easy. Reading never ending compliments about mediocre works devalue the more deserving ones. Sometime I wonder if people are just blind or just overly eager to find something "nice" to say. If I want nice I ask my mom!
As for your last statement about "Master" engraver, let just say that the standards are so low that the title is meaningless.

 

[atexascowboy2011]

Flawed/imperfect is a good thing !
Check out Bohlin's buckles. The cuts are very crude BUT ! these crude cut buckles bring $30,000-$40,000 !
I have a friend who produces buckles along the same style. His cuts again are very crude, but again he gets on some work $50,000 and $60,000 .
Folks with money don't want something that looks like it came from a machine.

As I have said in the past , I incorporate file/hammer marks in various places on my spurs to give them that handmade/used look.

There is even a culture in the Far East? who produce beautiful works of art and then go back and intentionally put flaws into the work.
Their rationale is that nothing man creates is 100% perfect.

The engraver with the flawed work that you reference is one that I highly respect due to his truly hand made work.
IT HAS CHARACTER !

 

[Riflesmith]

Yes, I know it's flawed, badly! But again, this was all about discovery and study and I was only "slinging paint" for that discovery! One must be allowed to just do a study and sling paint just for development without adhering to convention. I know the drawing and this cut are flawed but my intent was to get an opinion on the overall design not to have it picked apart for every flat, elbow or minute flaw. It is just a study and never intended to be a standalone masterpiece. Thank you all for your help.

 

[wowilson]

The shading looks nice.

 

[DAK4442]

Personally I find a scroll design more pleasing to the eye when elements emanating from the inside of the backbone remain inside and those that grow from outside the backbone stay outside (as your scroll on the left). When you deviated from that in your scroll on the right (bringing leaf elements that originate inside the backbone and roll them out over top of the spine) it tends to give a more "jumbled/untidy" visual to me? IMHO. Perhaps a recut or re sketch of the right scroll bringing the outward growing leaves off of the outside of the spine?
Dan

 

[Thierry Duguet]

Flawed/imperfect is a good thing !
Check out Bohlin's buckles. The cuts are very crude BUT ! these crude cut buckles bring $30,000-$40,000 !
I have a friend who produces buckles along the same style. His cuts again are very crude, but again he gets on some work $50,000 and $60,000 .
Folks with money don't want something that looks like it came from a machine.

As I have said in the past , I incorporate file/hammer marks in various places on my spurs to give them that handmade/used look.

There is even a culture in the Far East? who produce beautiful works of art and then go back and intentionally put flaws into the work.
Their rationale is that nothing man creates is 100% perfect.

The engraver with the flawed work that you reference is one that I highly respect due to his truly hand made work.
IT HAS CHARACTER !

Following your rational beginner should never improve, you can keep all your half blind customers unable to differentiate between quality handwork and machine made, fortunately some know better. Money is not everything!
I will add that I do not understand your reflection about "truly hand made work" I am a hand engraver, hammer and chisel, I do not transfer, and each work is unique, it can hardly be more "hand made", we obviously have a different class of customer and I have no desire to lower my standard to satisfy people with so little taste and discernment. Did you ever thought that maybe what your friend does is the best he can do and that he made a virtue out of his limitations?

 

[Dani Girl]

By your shading i think you're a Ray Cover fan? I like the way you have the backbones turning into almost ribbons and fairly balanced through the design. You've got some good leaf shapes there and nice three dimensionality. Keep playing with this. Keep sketching. Maybe some full designs like this for bracelets or belt buckles or something, whatever interests you.

 

[Riflesmith]

Dani Girl,
I can't say that I'm a fan of any particular engraver although some of the doubles William Gough engraved for Fox and Parker Brothers do appeal. His artwork with H&C and push graver is quite extraordinary, makes me wonder what he could do with today's tools. I've not seen much of Ray Covers work that I would recognize, never really studied his work. I do enjoy Phil Coggans work and what work I've seen of Sam Welch, there are others who's artwork I enjoy but other then that I just try to draw and develope my own artwork.

 

[Big-Un]

Riflesmith, of course I know everyone approaches their work different ways and we all have our quirks, but I was trying to lead a new entrant into looking at everything he does as the start of a masterpiece and not throw away some elements for the sake of others; bad habits to be taken care of early on. After years of learning and becoming proficient with the techniques, then he can slack off some on paper designs when he knows the end result in his mind and is doing nothing more than taking a short cut. I sketch very rapidly and loosly now, but years ago I needed to treat every element as THE main design, but that was 35 years ago.

As far as a "master" status engraver doing substandard work, which is always in the eyes of the beholder, I have seen some work like that also. It is not my place to call anyone out on their particular work, and I won't do so here or any other place, but I will never be classified a master engraver, not because I don't think I couldn't be if I wanted it, but because I really don't devote the time to pursue it. At my age, it will only serve to stroke my ego and I'm far beyond that. That is not to say I don't strive to produce the quality work demanded by a true Professional Master Engraver, which I do, just that I'm not ready to subject myself and my wife to the necessary rigors and time to achieve it. Ok, enough said, but I think you get my drift.

Bill

 

[Riflesmith]

Bill,
I do get your drift and totally understand where you're coming from, and I greatly appreciate your input. Thank you!