Announcement: Hand push demonstration video by Sam

[phil]

Nice demo Sam. I have personally found that when hand pushing, the majority of the force that is opposing the forward pressure that you are supplying by hand/wrist muscles comes from the curl of metal forcing into the face of the graver. Take a look from 4mins 20 to the termination of the backbone and 5mins 14 as an example of this. You can see that its almost the point when a slip would occur and you are really having to focus on control (which of course is carried out flawlessly):biggrin: It can clearly be seen that the chip is really obstucting the progression of the graver through the metal, partly due to the force of the chip pushing into the graver and partly from the friction caused by the chip dragging upwards over the face. I have found the following to help significantly and for easy explanation I will describe the process as done with a dual angle fixture.

1st stone the heel to suitable size... say 1.5mm length, to whatever lift angle you like to work with.

2nd rotate graver 180 degrees then stone face to whatever angle you prefer but for easy explanation say 45 degrees.

3rd. alter face angle to 30 degrees and grind enough so the 45 degree face angle is only just large enough to cut required depth.

hang on.... It is too difficult explaining this. let me draw a picture and take a quick photo with my phone. There that may explain better. I know this theory seems a little far fetched, but the amount of force that can be delivered by hand is miniscule compared to hammer and chisel or power assist. This extra grind, to in effect relieve the face of drag makes a whole world of difference, as does the width of face. I can not control anything above 90 degrees width with confidence due to the large amount of metal and therefore friction on the face, whereas a 65 degree lozenge cuts like a hot knife through butter.
Just my 2 pennies worth and as you say, ask 50 engravers a question and get 50 different answers. Thanks for taking the time to do this video Sam. I would have given my months wages for that 15 years ago.

 

[Deb Williams]

Thank you Sam! I wish my graver flowed through the cut like yours.

Deb Williams

 

[sam]

You're welcome, Deb Sharpen one up like mine and give it a go!

Phil: Thanks for your theory and drawing. I was using a 120 to engrave the backbone of the scroll and that particular line was the most difficult of all. It's not nearly as difficult with the narrower 105 as you have pointed out. The faces on my tools are pretty small so I'm not sure how much friction I'm getting, but your theory is certainly interesting as we want to eliminate as much resistance as possible when using hand power alone.

I'm also thinking graver length is to be considered. A slightly longer graver than I'd normally use in my handpiece seems to work better for me. I underscore seems because I'm still testing different lengths to see what works best.

 

[zahar]

Sam, are you have moments of failure, dismount incisor? and how do you avoid this?

 

[Cmason16]

Sam,
How thick is the copper plate/sheet you are working on and what are some sources for dead soft copper for practice plates?

Thanks,

Chuck

 

[John P. Anderson]

Chuck,

If your copper isn't dead soft it's easy to anneal by heating cherry red and let cool or drop in water to speed up the process. Find a piece of copper wire and practice.

When I hammer form a copper bracelet I anneal the copper a half dozen times in process.

Engraving I don't notice big difference between work hardened and annealed copper.

John

 

[wippin' boy]

thanks sam
i just got the bug over the holidays when the kids told me they wanted personalized ball markers
i have run the bandwidth spigot dry at my house the last few weeks looking for the absolute simple basics on hand pushing and this is the first actual informative video i have found.
there is tons of footage of people powergraving everything from nickles to boat docks. but no help on getting started with "a nickle and a nail"
your tip on grinding should prove to be a good one as everything else i have seen mentions nothing of this long heel angle which you describe as fundamental.
so far i have scratched all around the web and have what i think is a minimal starters package coming from several vender including grs and others.
i'm a bit of a fabricator so the ball block will be home made but should suffice.

once again

thanks a bunch

kw

 

[wippin' boy]

basics help

while we got your attention.
my first project after some practice is going to be these "© ball nickles" .
first easy design thoughts are to relieve the inside of calligraphy initials. when doing this relief work would you work away back to yourself like when you mortise out for a hinge in wood with chisel or do you try and push from yourself out?

kw

 

[Willem Parel]

When I look at the geometry of the gravers Sam subscribe in his thread, they look simular to the bulino graver geometry Chris ( DeCammilis) gives with his DVD on bulino engraving, is there a big difference?

 

[sam]

When I look at the geometry of the gravers Sam subscribe in his thread, they look simular to the bulino graver geometry Chris ( DeCammilis) gives with his DVD on bulino engraving, is there a big difference?

I'm not sure, Willem. There may be slight differences but visually they are similar.

 

[LVVP]

Sam, excellent tutorial and answers as well I learn a lot from them too
Thank you very much

 

[LVVP]

Never late to check your video, Sam
Always can find something new, thanks a lot again.

 

[Bluetickhound]

Sam, I apologize for dredging up old threads but I had a question on using the Easygraver 105 for hand push. Are you using only positions 1,2 & 5 to shape the graver, and skipping the 3 & 4 holes altogether? I have been using a 25' face, a tiny (.25mm) 17.5' heel on a 90' Glensteel and getting ok results for a total noob but the consensus seems to be that a 3mm "lift" and no heel is the way to go and your video bears this out. The tip on proper grip really helped out and I suspect I have a bit of re-learning to do moving forward....

 

[Montejano]

An illustrative video. Thank you for showing.:biggrin:

 

[sam]

Sam, I apologize for dredging up old threads but I had a question on using the Easygraver 105 for hand push. Are you using only positions 1,2 & 5 to shape the graver, and skipping the 3 & 4 holes altogether? I have been using a 25' face, a tiny (.25mm) 17.5' heel on a 90' Glensteel and getting ok results for a total noob but the consensus seems to be that a 3mm "lift" and no heel is the way to go and your video bears this out. The tip on proper grip really helped out and I suspect I have a bit of re-learning to do moving forward....

I don't think I did a reshaping grind since the heel is so large, if that's what you're referring to. Did you see the other video on the speitzer graver? That graver performs better for me than the EasyGraver geometry for hand pushing. When you get it right it'll glide beautifully through the metal. The down side is that you must hand shape it since it has curved sides similar to an onglette.

Also refer to the Ken Hunt thread as he talks about gravers he used for pushing.

 

[Bluetickhound]

Thanks Sam! I did see the Speitzer video and want to try that one also. It's curious to me that some folks have lamented a "lack of info" on hand push related things... I'm actually starting to suffer paralysis by analysis from all the threads/videos on the subject! Maybe that's normal for a beginner, maybe not but I'm enjoying myself immensely trying to figure out what will work best for me personally. Originally I had thought that going the hand push route would set me up to be ready for air power later but the further I go along the more I think the reverse would be closer to the truth...

 

[diandwill]

Thanks Sam! I did see the Speitzer video and want to try that one also. It's curious to me that some folks have lamented a "lack of info" on hand push related things... I'm actually starting to suffer paralysis by analysis from all the threads/videos on the subject! Maybe that's normal for a beginner, maybe not but I'm enjoying myself immensely trying to figure out what will work best for me personally. Originally I had thought that going the hand push route would set me up to be ready for air power later but the further I go along the more I think the reverse would be closer to the truth...

I think that is really true. The assisted allows you to learn engraving, to get the muscle memory and then once you have that, there are always areas that I feel are just easier to cut by hand. Knowing HOW is no longer a problem.

 

[Crossbolt]

I'll second that opinion from a beginner's perspective with hand pushing; I find the Speiter in my very limited experience to be the most effective; I tried an onglette and ended up regrinding the business end as a Speitzer which seem to work rather nicely.

Sam,
I've perused the Ken Hunt thread with interested but must be a bit dim as I find the graver drawings a little difficult to decipher. I'm interested in trying to duplicate them but before I start experimenting are you able to give rough shape information from your experience? (Angle, size)??

Thanks
Jeremy

 

[Crossbolt]

I've only done a couple months hammer and chisel previously but since trying to practice hand pushing I think I get a much better feel (literally) for the subtleties of the work. The limited exposure I've had to pneumatics didn't provide that. Of course my long term savings plan is for a palm held pneumatic but in the mean time I have to admit I prefer handpushing to H&C although I find it much harder. It's probably just me but I find I can be more delicate as well.... not that any of my horrible scratchings could truely be called delicate but I'm sure you know what I mean
Jeremy

 

[Crossbolt]

I've only done a couple months hammer and chisel previously but since trying to practice hand pushing I think I get a much better feel (literally) for the subtleties of the work. The limited exposure I've had to pneumatics didn't provide that. Of course my long term savings plan is for a palm held pneumatic but in the mean time I have to admit I prefer handpushing to H&C although I find it much harder. It's probably just me but I find I can be more delicate as well.... not that any of my horrible scratchings could truely be called delicate but I'm sure you know what I mean
Jeremy