Graver recipes

[Memorymaker]

Couldn't think of the right word so I used recipes.

I've seen several recipes of angles for grinding/sharpening different gravers.

What do you use for what lines and how do you build them ( angles )

 

[monk]

you're referring to "graver geometries". in reality, one could nearly write a book on this very subject. a good start would be the tip section. sam has a good vid on sharpening. if you're a newbie, there's way too many to fret about. a good start== 45 face, 15 heel. this will work on flats, squares, and some other graver styles. at first, remember the "kiss" principle. you'll also find, after researching this, not all engravers use the same geometry or even graver style to achieve a given effect.
if you don't have a sharpening "system", achieving many of the geometries will be hit or miss. mostly miss..
get a looseleaf and start taking notes.

 

[Memorymaker]

I have the video and I know about the 45/15 and I have the power hone with all of the wheels and the dual sharpener. I also have the DVDs on Bulino and there geometries. As you said ....... One could write a book but from I've seen there isn't one .......... And since it is so important and basic, I'm surprised there isn't much information on this topic. It probably should have its own topic category

 

[JJ Roberts]

Rich,Since you have a power hone I send you geometry needed for sharping. J.J.

 

[sam]

If you sharpen a square, 105, or 120 with a 45/15 geometry, there's not much you can't engrave with them. I engraved almost exclusively with a square graver for 20 years.

 

[Memorymaker]

Thanks ......... Now we're talking ........

I have a bunch of gravers that came with my Gravermax. I have no idea what they are. I guess I can put them in the dual sharpener and try to find the angles. Is there another way?

 

[sam]

Check out GRStools.com and you should be able to identify the gravers that you have. Or post a pic here.
If you have a video, sharpening system, and gravers, it sounds like you have everything you need.

 

[monk]

not knowing about all this "stuff", likely means--- at this moment, you don't need to know it. if you suddenly "knew" it, would you have the skills to use it all? maybe, but likely not. a 90 square is a good start, fairly easy to master. practice with that till you're comfy with it. since you have the sharpening toys, then make that 90 into a 105, and progress from there.
it's important to get to know the feel of the graver. each graver/geometry will have a different feel. only with practice, can one change gravers in the middle of a job, and know just by feel, how things are going to work.
as for store-bought gravers, the things should be, but aren't always labelled as to what they are. IN TIME, you will know al this !

 

[Memorymaker]

First, I want to greatly thank Sam and JJ for sharing info with a newbie.

Second ....

Wow ......... Monk ......... Thank you for your demeaning attitude. Maybe others would like to know some of the things I asked too ....... Now I understand why they haven't been asked.

I just noticed that there seemed to be different graver geometries that aren't listed in many places. I was just wondering what people used. I didn't know I was a question that was forbidden.

I'm part of a bunch of tackle making, fishing, Rod making, kayaking etc forums. I have the best of equipment in all of those areas and I have learned a lot and shared a lot on them. I guess I'm use to people welcoming newbies and openly and everyone willingly sharing their expertise with others. I know I learn a lot from everyone I meet both newbies and oldies.

I'm not use to being talked down to ......... My expertise is in senior technical design and management of large telecommunications and video communications systems and I would never talk down to someone that did not have my level of experience in that way.

Don't worry .......... I won't ask you to share so valuable expertise again.

I have to tell you that I got more than a few of emails from others that just lurk instead of contributing or asking questions because the high and mighty attitude of some the last time I had the audacity to ask for more in depth explanations. Maybe it's something you may want to think about ....... Or not.

Please forgive me for asking a question ......... I won't make that mistake again.

I will join the legions of lurkers and get my education from videos, books and personalized professional instruction.

Again .......... Many thanks to Sam and JJ.

 

[Big-Un]

Come on Memorymaker, don't get your panties in a wad! I'm not trying to speak for Monk, but I'm sure to malice was intended, probably just trying to see if your experience matched your enthusiasm.

 

[oiseau metal arts]

you can cut a line with any sharp graver. the equipment you say you have comes with instructions (with detailed pictures) of how to sharpen square gravers. at least mine did when I ordered it. the same instructions GRS uses in its classes. a lot of new people get caught up in "what geometry does XXX world class master use"(or template) and seem to expect the same result from using the same tool. me buying a$200 pair of shoes will no more help me slam dunk a ball from the free throw line, than will using sams exact graver produce the same result in my hand. getting the feel for controlling a 90deg. will be a good first step. I started off with a box of hand push gravers, with different angles. I couldn't really tell them apart, or what to best use them for. I mainly knew it was tough keeping them sharpened by hand, and even tougher using them to make anything that resembled what I saw in pictures, without slipping and stabbing my other hand as well.

also.... not to belittle your experience in your field, but this takes more than "read the instructions, and you get the same results" you may be use to in such IT endeavors. putting the gravers to metal, studying how it works/feels, and gaining more experience with the tools will help all the confusion about geometry make more sense.

I have a different geometries I use because ive found ones that works comfortable for ME, my tools, and the way I use them. ive also collected a lot of others I go to for special uses. youll discover what works for you in tome as well. no need to be so thin skinned, or hide in the shadows.

 

[atexascowboy2011]

There are hundreds of engravers in the Md./N.Y. area.
Find two or three and see if you can spend some time with them.
Ed Kane is in N.Y. and quite possibly might be willing to get you started.

 

[sam]

Memorymaker: monk is a great guy and a great asset to my forum. He helps manage the place and expects nothing in return. I know him well enough that no malice was intended. If I thought he was being mean to you I'd take him to the woodshed myself....that is if I wasn't scared of him.

So let's do a group hug and start over. You are welcome to participate and ask all the questions you like. It would also be a great time to browse our vast Tips Archive as well as my tutorial site iGraver.com. Sharpen up some gravers and get cutting and enjoy the fun.

~Your friendly Admin

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Memorymaker, I personally haven't been around on the forum for a while but it's a shame if you have been left with a bad impression through one poor comment. I must admit Monks post did appear a little condescending but I'm sure he didn't mean it that way. The problem with forums and posts are things can often get misconstrued because of the way things are written whereas if you were talking to the same person face to face there is no way you'd get upset because you'd see facial expressions and body language, etc.

This is one of the friendliest forums there is and a lot of professional engravers have given of their precious time and decades of knowledge in order to educate and advise fellow engravers, FOR FREE! They don't have to do it but they see it as putting something back into our craft so they can see it flourish once again. However, this advice does sometimes come with a caveat.... The reason being why should we be milked for info, or why should you be spoon fed information? The topic has been covered before on more than one occasion in the past so I'm sure if you did some digging you'd find what you're looking for.

Also, if you'd said "Guys, look I'm having a bit of a problem with my sharpening. I've tried x,y,z and it doesn't seem to be working for me, what am I doing wrong?" you might've got a slightly different response because you're showing you're trying and putting effort into learning rather than just wanting a "recipe book". Sam has an excellent DVD on sharpening and geometries (which I note you say you have) AND I just Googled "GRS graver sharpening fixture instructions" which tells you exactly how to use it. AND, on top of that, if you really can't grasp what it's saying there are fixtures for set angles made by GRS and Lindsay. So the info is out there, just saying you have the video, and the geometries doesn't actually tell us what the problem is or what efforts you've made.

When people see an effort being made they are only too happy to help. But our craft isn't like flyfishing, or photography, or guitar playing where there are millions of people doing it. We are a small bunch of people relatively speaking and engraving is a skill that takes a while to learn and that you never really stop learning. There is also a degree of experimentation which needs to be undertaken and that's all part of the fun. Something what works for dozens of other people might not work for you but with experimentation you can find what does. I think Phil Coggan said once that he doesn't use a heel on his gravers. The only graver that I use without a heel is for bulino - my ordinary gravers have to have a heel or I can't cut with them. We are all individuals and what works for you might or might not work for me.

Now, if you decide to take umbrage and throw your teddy out of the pram, that's up to you. If you want to be a 'lurker' and just milk information from the forum without contributing then there's nothing we can do to stop you and it's not very constructive. BUT, when one day you're stuck and really need the help of an experienced engraver you might just get told where you can get off.

So please, take a breath and join in with the forum in the spirit it was intended. We may occasionally have disagreements (granted, nowhere near as many as in the early days) but generally we all get on in the spirit of friendship, even if some of us are grumpy old sods!

 

[Leland Davis]

Memorymaker, monk has been very helpful and forthcoming with critiques when I ask for it. His perspective is a valuable tool in learning. He may come across as gruff in some of his responses but they are all meant to help, ya can't be thin skinned around here or you won't learn anything. My last post had a part he referred to as a disaster but it was constructive criticism big difference than just being nasty.
Leland

 

[Bluetickhound]

I didn't see anything demeaning at all in Monk's comments... I'm new here myself and whenever he's responded to one of my questions he's shot straight and I appreciate it. Tone is hard to gauge in emails and Internet forum posts so I try not to read anything in that probably isn't there to begin with. I hope you'll continue to participate as I have some of the same questions as you do... I also have a power hone, Sam's video and the dual angle sharpener. I have been experimenting with a few different geometries but right now as a total beginner I have decided (for the moment, anyway!!) to stick with a 90 degree square graver and after a bit of playing around in 5 degree increments, to go with a 30 degree face. I'm pushing by hand right now but plan to step up to air power as soon as practicable... I have a few other equipment upgrades that are more pressing and less costly right now!

Again, put me down as another guy here who thinks Monk is a good guy.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

I have been experimenting with a few different geometries but right now as a total beginner I have decided (for the moment, anyway!!) to stick with a 90 degree square graver and after a bit of playing around in 5 degree increments, to go with a 30 degree face. I'm pushing by hand right now but plan to step up to air power as soon as practicable.

Good that you're experimenting but what are you cutting? 30º face is very long and low and this will make for a fragile tip. Personally, face angle should never really go below 45º and if you're cutting a very tough steel you might want to be thinking 55º and even up to a 60º face angle.

 

[Bluetickhound]

Right now it's just copper. Hand pushing with a 15 degree heel. Anything steeper just seems to dive in so deep I have to really muscle the graver through. I could be wrong but it doesn't seem like it should take that much effort.

 

[sam]

Marcus: 30-35 face angle works best for me as well for hand pushing. For light shading lines I can use a steeper face, but for hand pushing larger and deeper cuts a lower face just seems to work for me. I can't explain why though.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

You know what Sam, it's been so long since I hand pushed and didn't use a sharpening fixture, I can't honestly say what the face angle was when I used to just eyeball it but thinking about it, it might well have been less than 45º. All I know is with a lot of tough steels and using air assist I would never go under 45º. But if it were on gold, silver or copper no problem. The benefit of course is it's easier to see the point of the graver. And of course, I'll stick by my mantra, "If it works, use whatever works for you!"