Engraved 1953 Beretta

[Gargoyle]

I have a couple of questions about this my 1953 Beretta 420bis, the engraved version of the model 418, .25acp.
1. might it be signed anywhere?
2. About how much time would the engraving have taken?

I know on the Beretta shotguns the engravers often signed or initialed their work somewhere near the trigger guard. I can't find anything that could be a signature (I also looked under the grips). Would these have been signed, or was it more of a production line/commercial engraving?

At that time the engraving added very little to the price. Per a 1957 catalog, engraving only added about $6.00 to those sold in the U.S.; Chrome with pearl grips was $43.50, engraved chrome with pearl grips was $49.50. In fact, the upgrade from black plastic to pearl grips (which I suspect were white plastic, not real mother of pearl) added as much to the cost as did the engraving.
(note, Engraved chrome with pearl grips was model 420, the tortoise shell grips make this one model 420bis, which cost more and was rarer.).

I know that 20 years after this was made, in 1974, marble carvers in Italy were earning ₤10,000/day (about $15.00), so I wouldn't be surprised if in 1953, with the postwar economy, engravers in Brescia were getting less than $3.00 per day.

 

[Gargoyle]

BTW, judging from the chamber, I don't believe this has been fired since it was proof tested.

 

[monk]

this all looks to be "quick work" to my eye. our historian, roger bleile would probably know the answer.fwiw, it's a nice lookin pocket gun.

 

[Gargoyle]

this all looks to be "quick work" to my eye.

Yes, I expected that when I bought it. (it is nicer than the photos I'd seen). I'm sure the lower level engravers at Beretta were put on this sort of production run, with time constraints placed on them, and if their skills developed, they moved up the ladder. So, they might not have had the position in the company to be allowed to sign their work.
Still, I'm very pleased with it. Even the simplest and least expensive Berettas of that era had solid quality.

BTW, Monk, I just noticed your join date here was 7 days before me, so I must bow to your seniority.

 

[AllenClapp]

The shading was done with a liner, so that would not have taken much time.

 

[monk]

Yes, I expected that when I bought it. (it is nicer than the photos I'd seen). I'm sure the lower level engravers at Beretta were put on this sort of production run, with time constraints placed on them, and if their skills developed, they moved up the ladder. So, they might not have had the position in the company to be allowed to sign their work.
Still, I'm very pleased with it. Even the simplest and least expensive Berettas of that era had solid quality.

BTW, Monk, I just noticed your join date here was 7 days before me, so I must bow to your seniority.

holy cow. i must be getting old. no need to bow. when i bow there's lots of sounds coming from my bones.

 

[Roger Bleile]

Hi Walter,

Generally, production work, like the engraving on your pistol, would not have been signed. It could have been cut by a school trained apprentice or a journeyman. I would estimate 4-6 hours of work.

Did you get the pistol on one of your trips to Italy?

Caio,

Roger

 

[Gargoyle]

Did you get the pistol on one of your trips to Italy?
Caio,

Roger

No, found it here. I don't have an importers license, only C&R. Not sure how I'd go about importing from Italy, especially because their laws are way stricter than any here.

 

[Gargoyle]

Hi Walter,

Generally, production work, like the engraving on your pistol, would not have been signed. It could have been cut by a school trained apprentice or a journeyman. I would estimate 4-6 hours of work.

For comparison, same year mine was produced, 1953, Beretta did an engraved .22 Plinker, model 948, which made the cover of American Rifleman. That one was signed by A. Baglioni, and they said it "required the major portion of each working day for 51 weeks". They also offered to make another like it for $2500, which was enough to buy a house back then. (at the time, a plain blued model 948 was $43.95).

 

[Roger Bleile]

While the Baglioni engraved pistol was finely done, I can't believe that it would have consumed nearly a year's work by a master. There may have been some puffery in that article. Maybe some of our colleagues could estimate how long it would take to do that job.

 

[John B.]

While the Baglioni engraved pistol was finely done, I can't believe that it would have consumed nearly a year's work by a master. There may have been some puffery in that article. Maybe some of our colleagues could estimate how long it would take to do that job.

I agree with Roger.
No way would the pistol take a European factory trained engraver nearly a year to engrave.
The picture shows just lots of coverage of pretty nice standard factory engraving. No inlays or anything special.

To put this in perspective.
The FN Belgium factory engravers were expected to engrave 4 or 5 Grade 1 Browning over/under in ONE DAY.
And that is a lot of engraving on a lot of the parts of these guns. Nothing special but a lot of engraving.
They were given the guns on a cart, in parts, all fully prepped.
And all done with hammer and chisel, like the Italian companies.

 

[oniemarc]

I agree with Roger.
No way would the pistol take a European factory trained engraver nearly a year to engrave.
The picture shows just lots of coverage of pretty nice standard factory engraving. No inlays or anything special.

To put this in perspective.
The FN Belgium factory engravers were expected to engrave 4 or 5 Grade 1 Browning over/under in ONE DAY.
And that is a lot of engraving on a lot of the parts of these guns. Nothing special but a lot of engraving.
They were given the guns on a cart, in parts, all fully prepped.
And all done with hammer and chisel, like the Italian companies.

Would those be "standard" designs they would pump out all day every day? After a while those designs could have been engraved blindfold I suppose. Would be quite impressive to see them at work.

 

[John B.]

Would those be "standard" designs they would pump out all day every day? After a while those designs could have been engraved blindfold I suppose. Would be quite impressive to see them at work.

The Grade I Browning over/under was a standard engraving pattern as shown in the Browning catalog.
Nothing very special, just very nice, well cut engraving.
The total amount of engraving and pieces to be engraved in that number of guns in one day is mind blowing.!

 

[monk]

if pattern transfers were available of such work, just the barest outline, i'd say there was a time i could have done this in maybe 15 hours. and at that time i was in no way ,time wise,. able to compete with the factory "boys and girls".

 

[monk]

john: do you think those "factory engravers" were given some sort of design transfer to apply? or did they just let the graver do what it wanted to do ? just curious as to the layout part of it.

 

[John B.]

john: do you think those "factory engravers" were given some sort of design transfer to apply? or did they just let the graver do what it wanted to do ? just curious as to the layout part of it.

Working engravers had to produce almost exact copies of the standard Browning engraving patterns.
They had available the earliest form of photo copies for the working Browning engravers to follow.
These were much larger than the actual engravings and not used for transfer.
They were copies of the original design layout drawings that were produced by the Browning Master.
These designs were approved for that grade of gun, and then photographed for Browning's Catalog.
Each working engraver was expected to be able to engrave an almost perfect copy of these designs.
On the standard engraved guns, Grade 1-5 the factory wanted to reproduce what the customer had seen and expected from their catalog. No deviations allowed.
Some of Browning's working engravers would make oiled paper, dried rubbings of the standard patterns, for future transfers, to speed up their everyday work.
These were applied and rubbed on the powder coated metal surfaces and were not hand or "drag" proof.

Special order, full custom engraved guns could sometimes be ordered from Browning.
These were usually engraved only by one of their team of 3-4 Masters, and sometimes signed if requested.
Standard grade guns were usually unsigned.

 

[Roger Bleile]

At the Merkel factory in Suhl, Germany, the engravers who are cutting standard patterns are so accustomed to cutting the same design over and over that they can start with a blank action and cut the scroll and scene from memory.

 

[John B.]

At the Merkel factory in Suhl, Germany, the engravers who are cutting standard patterns are so accustomed to cutting the same design over and over that they can start with a blank action and cut the scroll and scene from memory.

As you say, Roger.
I have seen the same from the Liege trained FN Browning engravers. No layout, just cut from memory.
Some made a so-called "layout" with wax and powder and different sized thumb prints to space their scrolls.
Absolutely amazing. They would be talking to you while doing this and cutting. Amazing concentration.

I have also seen some of them cut all the top halves of the scroll backbone and leaves in a design.
Then turn their big, heavy vise 180 degrees and complete all the bottom halves of the scrolls perfectly.
Amazing visualization and memory. Insane skill!!

 

[Gargoyle]

Thanks for all the feedback. Some of the stories remind me of a some of the old stone carvers. I worked with one in Italy when I was 20-21 years old, he was phenomenal at roughing out large sculptures in marble. Sledge hammer, three pound lump hammer and a point chisel. There is a rhythm and dance when you do the the point chisel right- three hits, form a triangle, first two the forward points a bit softer, then a real sharp snap for the back point and the triangle spall pops off and flies.

He'd be working away, I could talk to him and he'd look at me without pausing the swing of the hammer (and it's soft iron, the edges of the hammer mushroom and the head of the chisel is tempered, so if you hit your hand it's really ugly) all the chips flying 15 feet in one direction. Sometimes tourists would come stand at the door and watch. He'd "ignore" them, let them stand there for a minute or two. Then, with no apparent change in his attention or stroke, the chips would continue flying 15 feet but shift direction to be flying towards the door.

When I was working on the Washington Cathedral, we'd carve a lot of finials and crockets (cabbage leaf ornaments on the edges of the top of a pinnacle). It became very mathematical, a real economy of movement. One of the old carvers 10 years before I was there was Gino Bresciani. He had carved so many, he had such a real economy of movement, that he'd light a cigar, leave it in his mouth, carve away on the crocket, and the ash would get longer and longer. The other carvers would start watching him to see how he did, because sometimes he'd end up with the entire cigar a single long ash before it fell.

(In the photo, foreground at the bottom crockets are just shaped, roughed out, those in back are finished)

 

[Gargoyle]

A few historic crockets, lots of variation but they share a consistent overall massing and the general way light and shadow define the form.