Competetive Engraving

[Ron Smith]

I would like to start a discussion for your input and opinions, sort of being out of circulation now.
I know it is hard to decide on what one should charge for his time, and I would be the first one to encourage getting whatever you can or whatever people are willing to pay. There is one thing that might interfere with that concept. That would be competition. Many people gave up engraving because they couldn't make a living at it and took it up as a second interest. That was the bulk of my competition over the years and there weren't many occupational engravers. I was one of the few coming into the trade as a full time engraver.

As time goes on, the market will become saturated and prices will change as a result of new people coming into the trade and wanting to compete. Of course the ones who are the most efficient and accurate will get the bulk of the work and under those circumstances one will have to compete with one with more experience, particularly in speed. That is why pricing is more or less a personal thing. Being custom work only confounds the problem.

I was watching someone teach how to layout and letter a name. I stood and watched him outline the letters and in the time he had drawn the capitol letter in outline, I could have had the whole job done. That is the product of being in an invironment of a hobby attitude. The point is, you wouldn't want to have to compete with me, as I could do that job in a fifth of the time and make more money and charge less. You would be setting up your own demise unless you could compete. You might be pricing yourself right out of business.

I only tell you this because it will get a little tougher as time goes by unless we create a wider customer base. If you deal with the general public, they will not pay exorbitant prices. They have to stay within the boundaries they can afford. The customer base gets smaller as you progress toward high quality work. You get volume from the general public. It is simple economics and numbers.

This would only concern those trying to do engraving as a business. It is a whole new ballgame and my intention is to make you aware of occupational requrements in case you are interested in going this direction. Engraving is great as a second interest, but hard as an occupation so I wouldn't encourage anyone to do it as a business, but I bet this won't discourage some. So be it. Some will drop out, some will survive, but the hobbiest has the better opportunity to practice this trade without the pressure of monetary and family requirements etc.
Ron S

 

[Ray Cover]

Good thoughts Ron.

Here are some random thoughts that come to mind on the issue.

Of course, its not only pure competition. Look at Ron Lake knives. Ron Lake gets about $10,000 for his standard folding knife and I am told the 18K framed one I am finishing up now goes for close to $20,000. Ron can demand those prices because he has the reputation and his work is collectible. But one does have to compete long enough to build such a reputation.

Here is an observation from the knife market. I grew up going to knife shows with my father. I can remember when he joined the knifemakers guild in the early '80s when they still had their big annual show in Kansas City, MO. Back then there were only a few custom makers (the guild was small then). I can't remember any knife specific magazines back then. Only a hand full of makers were much more than hobby knifemakers with regular day jobs. There was no internet and it was before the time of Rambo and other movies that made certain maker's knives popular. And you could count the number of purveyors on one hand.

Over the years I have watched a phenomena take place. As time went on more and more makers from around the world joined in the custom knife making market, This gave the handmade knife more exposure as these new people from various places started exposing their local area. Custom knife making became more and more popular. More and more new makers are showing up in the market all the time.

This cycle has repeatedly developed this way over the years to the point that purveyors and knife shows are everywhere now, there are several custom knife specific magazines on the magazine racks now, there are several knife specific forums and websites out there. Along with the new makers the number of collectors has grown as well as the exposure has increased.

For the past two years Tim Adlam, Joe Mason and myself sat at the Blade Show and gabbed and enjoyed each others company and conversation because none of us were taking work. Every good knife engraver I know is busy.

The phenomena that has happened in the knife market is the "if you build it they will come" thing. There seems to be a direct relation between the number of makers out there and the number of collectors. The more makers to choose from the more people want to collect.

I think of it like this. How many kids would collect baseball cards if cards were only available from one ball team and only the fans in that teams town were ever exposed to baseball cards?

That is exactly why I have always encouraged new engravers to get into the knife market. It is likely to make the market grow rather than take work from the rest of us.

Enough of my ramblings I want to get this lake knife done tonight.

Ray

PS.

One more thought here. THis came to mind as I was posting this so I thought I would come back and edit.
The knife magazines and books as well as websites that have come along through the years have also done a lot to give that exposure that has increased the number of collectors in the knife market.

As I sit here I cannot think of any HAND engraving specific magazines being published that potential collectors can go to the local Barnes and Noble and pick up. The FEGA magazine is fantastic since Andrew has been working his magic on it but it is only available to FEGA members (ie. folks already involved in the engraving market.). There is not much chance of it being a catalyst to bring new collectors into the market. There have been several hard back books come out in the last few years and that is encouraging.

Ray

 

[monk]

the difference ,i think, between a real pro and a not-so-real-- the real constantly seeks ways to shorten time,eliminate procedural steps when possible, and always to try and maintain quality. whereas the not so real usually has the attitude-"well i'm doing this in my home", who cares if i don't get paid for all that xtra time ? and this wasted time usually leads the not so real to feel less than compensated when they charge for a job.

 

[dclevinger]

Ron, another great post buddy!!

I agree, it is not at all easy trying to do this for a living. If I hadn't gotten hooked up with a manufacturer, I don't think I would have been able to afford to engrave full time. After two years of having my own business, I'm just now starting to get a decent amount of calls for custom work. It has been a huge struggle at times but I have no regrets what so ever.

Ray, you have a great point. I believe that the internet is giving engraving a whole lot more exposure which should help to increase the client base. The more people we educate, the better off we all are.

monk, something else to consider is the fact that some do this strictly for the art's sake. The chance to create true pieces of art takes precedent over the monetary gains.

I look forward to others thoughts.
David

 

[monk]

david, that's very true. but pity the poor bloke who is a true artist, is young, a new family, mortgage, ah man that's scary stuff.early on i could see money, but i also had to diversify. i spent a lot of time doing other things beside hand engraving. notwithstanding all the years i've been doing this, my skill as a hand engraver have yet to "catch up". i've never had the luxury to practice the hand work as much as i would have liked until now. in spite of my lack of skill, i don't resent a moment of the time i've spent at this greatest ever endeavor. if i never catch up, i will still never regret, because i at least give it a try and enjoy immensly doing this work. becoming a participant on this forum has more than reinforced my joy in ever having started ! one guy in particular, if i can drop a name, steve ellsworth, took me by the hand and personally drug me thru a very depressing winter and also taught me how to carve a hobo. how great is that ??

 

[Christopher Malouf]

whereas the not so real usually has the attitude-"well i'm doing this in my home", who cares if i don't get paid for all that xtra time ? and this wasted time usually leads the not so real to feel less than compensated when they charge for a job.

I have to disagree with this statement. Sorry Monk.

Maybe, just maybe, those folks figure they are making an investment in themselves as they conquer a new learning curve.

Maybe they've got their monotonous and mundane production work to pay the bills and then "waste time" on the challenging jobs.

What you are describing is the difference between a seasoned professional engraver and a professional tinkerer .... not someone that is paying his dues on the road to becoming a seasoned professional engraver.

I've lost money on almost every firearm related job I've done but that's because I expect the customer to get the best I can do without having to pay for what I should already know. Until that time ... "I'm doing this in my home" and ain't got much else to do with my spare time except eat, sleep and drink engraving. Besides, I consider firearms engraving to be the ultimate test of an engraver's skill, that sort of learning curve needs to be tackled at a comfortable pace.

--------

Hey David, I ditched my high maintenance, (notsobetter and almost) other half, moved to West Virginia and got a dog. (notthatIamsuggestingthattoanyone) Minimizing expenses is a good way to get started as well as to beat the learning curve and the only way I could have gotten going. I could work one week a month and spend the rest of the time on the porch if I so desired. Isn't finding some measure of peace in this life truly what this "competition" is supposed to be about anyway?

Hi Ron ... I think building a reputation for honesty and quality is far more important than efficiency. Efficiency is something better achieved with experience because one is less likely to sacrifice quality in the process. I'm probably not mentioning anything you don't already know...but that's the way I see it. After hammering out a process that produces a quality product, streamline. When yer still trying to gain that experience, you have to sometimes charge for what a job should cost rather than what it actually costs (in time). I don't mind paying my dues (eventhough I gripe incessantly about it sometimes) but that is the hidden cost of the experience I gain. For now, there is more work than engravers out there so I believe this is the time to focus on quality and improvement. Streamline for efficiency later.


Regards,
Chris

 

[Marcus Hunt]

There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey.
John Ruskin

 

[vilts]

Great thread, great thoughts. I'm not an accomplished engraver, nor even close in skillwise to most of you here. In Engrave-In I had a chance to talk with Amayak Stepanyan and I think I'll remember the story he told be about himself for a long-long time.

He described when he worked in jewelry factory in Russia and they were paid by volume. The more you make, the more you earn. Usually other guys were making something like 40-50% more than he, because he wanted everything to be perfect. He made good work, others made so-so or even crap, just to earn money and generate volume. He didn't care about the money, he loved his job and knew that money will come later. And look at Amayak's engravings now, just plain amazing: Owen Wood knife engraved by Amayak
That's the knife many people saw at Engrave-In too and I think all were amazed.

Fortunately me and my wife both work in well-paid jobs and I don't have to worry about money now. So I will engrave and make knives, knowing that time and money doesn't matter. I'm an artist and create art for arts sake. I create to express myself, as well as I can.

If someday I'll be good enough, it will pay for itself. If not, well.. I don't have to worry about it now

Just a different point of view.

Viljo

 

[Mike Cirelli]

Unfortunately you have to put some speed behind your work if you make a living at an art. Fortunately it usually comes naturally the more you do. I think even for engravers It's a good idea to have some piece done and for sale at your price. When it's somewhat slow or you need a diversion put out a few private pieces. Good for the so called rainy day. Whether it be belt buckles, guns, knifes whatever. It's a tough business when you try to make a living within the arts and your hands can do only so much no matter how fast you are. I'm more in the jewelry arts and don't know whats it like as a side job, but it sounds like it's looking through a different window.

 

[Christopher Malouf]

Great quote Marcus ...

Here's another from that era...

"The world has seen its iron age, its silver age, its golden age and its bronze age. This is the age of shoddy." -- New York Times, April 3, 1861


The world may have changed, but it is people who have always remained the same.

 

[Ron Smith]

I think with the onslought of the industrial revolution, the pride of workmanship faded away and the realization of the magnificence of hand wrought items went with it. How better however, can you serve your fellow man than to give him the best you have to give of your mind, your spirit, and the fruit of your hands.

I am in good company and am honored to be included in it.

Thanks guys, good discussion!

Chris, in order to be able to pursue this skill full time, it is almost imperative that you go at it as you are doing. You are correct in your motives and passion. You learn how to keep your expenses at rock bottom to survive. Success will come in time, but the love you have for what you are doing is what it is about anyway. Money is only a small part of it. How many people do you think can't wait to go to work every day?

Like Monk, there are no regrets, only a very fulfilling desire to create beauty. Only honor............Powerful motive and powerful results, and a depth of understanding about the true meaning of life. We are producing grace. what greater pursuit is there?

David, your comments are at the very root of my lifelong motives also. It is the art, and it will always be the art with me, and even if I might no longer put my hand to the graver. That passion for the art still is a great power in my life. A drive with that kind of power behind it can only succeed, but then our definition (people on this forum) of success is simple and different from any of those out there with mundane jobs who might not understand this. It is not measured by money. It is measured by beauty.

I am struck by the closeness of this group because of the passion we share, and I think it is a magnetic situation that people want to be envolved with. It is our duty to educate so that our engraving base expands to include everyone interested in one form or another, and leave powerful impressions on those who aren't. Clients, artists, and layman. Ignorance was the cause of so much struggle in mine and those in my times age group. Those days are over I think, we are winning them over, for we are educating the world.

Good point Marcus!..............But the cream always rises to the top, does it not?.....and that is as it should be. Our rewards might come later than most, but they are powerful, and the inspiration we all leave behind speaks for itself.

Forward!

Ron S

 

[BrianPowley]

Ron S.--A great thread!
Charging for work has to be the most agonizing thing I've ever tackled. It wasn't until I was talking to Ken Hurst that that I realized that I was on the right track to pricing. He taught me to use a stop watch while cutting.
Record your hours/minutes.
I guarantee it won't take long before you know how much to charge for your work.
This business end of engraving is the same as any other business: You have "X" amount of expenses per month, you have to make "X" amount of income to cover the expense and make an additional profit.
Regardless of your level of education,this next part is easy to understand.
Whether you are working,playing or sleeping, you are spending money. On a monthly basis, a daily basis, an hourly basis,or by the minute...you are spending money!!!!!
I've taken the time to realize what I cost myself per minute per month.
I now have a "hard" figure to base what I have to charge for my work.

Here's my financial formula:
I looked at ALL of my expenses for the previous year.(Yes, it takes time, but do you want to be financially successful or not? I do.)
Next,I use that number and add an additional 5% (for inflation),divide by 12 (months) to give me my yearly expense on a per monthly basis. Then I divide that monthly number by 22 (average days in a month I want to work).
I now have my daily expenses and this is the number I have to cover each day.
Let's go further:
I usually work 10 hours(600 minutes) per day.
If I divide my daily expense by 600, I get my cost per minute of my work day.
This is the number I want. It tells me what to charge to break even, it tells me what I have to add to make a profit.
Let's try one out, shall we?
1.) $45,000 per year in total expenses (All monthly expenses added up)
2.) Add 5% for inflation = $45,000 + 2250 = $47,250
3.) Divide $47,250 by 12= $3937.50 -- per month costs
4.)Divide $3937.50 by 22 (total monthly days to work)= $178.97 (let's round that to $180.00)
5.)Divide $180.00 by 600 (work minutes per day)= $0.30 per minute
$0.30 (thirty cents) per minute is the "magic number" just to break even. Anything above that is profit.
Let's use $.45 per minute as our guide. (BTW---$.45 x 60 = $27.00 per hour)

Now lets put that GRS key fob in the vise, push the start button on your stop watch, and start cutting away.
If the phone rings, stop the watch.Re-start when you resume cutting.
Time for a coffee? Stop the watch. Re-start when you resume cutting., etc.,etc.

HEY----The key fob is done and the stop watch says 82 minutes.
82 X $0.45 = $36.90 (plus shipping)

Now I know I've covered my expenses and made a profit. I also know that I haven't spent all of time engraving, because I looked at the clock when I started and when I finished. LOL!
You'll be surprised at how much time you waste in the day.

Since I know this key fob took 82 minutes, I plan on doing the next one in less time, but charging $36.90.
After all, it is worth $36.90, right? I also have a built in price for any key fob that is similar to this one.
Pretty soon, I'm engraving 2 key fobs in 82 minutes.....Yes-It can be done, if you want it bad enough.
Let's see-------$36.90 x 2 = $73.80.
73.80 divided by 82 = $0.90 per minute.
$.90 X 60 = $54.00 per hour of engraving.

These are very real figures that are obtainable through experience, skill and "the will to succeed".

On the subject of exorbitant prices, you're right on, Ron. High quality work was a very narrow customer base.
The subject of Production engraving vs. One-of-a-kind pieces is one I'm very plugged into.
I very much enjoy the cash flow from production work, but production work can become just another boring, "I sure hate this job" if you let it.
Balance is always going to be a problem with me, but it's a fight I'm willing to get into the ring with.

Ray Cover, I love your insights as well. All good stuff to garner. Here's a thought:
I wonder if the custom knife business would grow as big as it has become if every knife made had to get logged in and out of the manufacturers book, and every sale required a ATF 4473, a background check phone call. Oh....let's not forget the occasional compliance inspection "visit" from the ATF Field agent. LOL!

Marcus, I love the quote! A great message for all!

 

[Peter E]

Great thread and some excellent information. Your breakdown is really informative Brian.

When I first took the "plunge" and invested in some classes and equipment my finances were vastly different than they are now, especially the expenses part of the equation.

I had a job in IT that had evolved through organizational and management changes into one that left me literally angry at the end of each day. In a career spanning 30 years, the majority were great and I felt priveleged to have the lifestyle it afforded me. That was before the unlimited corporate greed by those at the top and creative accounting practices that allowed those in power to orchestrate wholesale "outsourcing" yielding themselves huge bonuses whether or not actual cost saving ever occurred. Enough about that.

Combine that with the astronomical cost of living increases just to exist, and Brian's statement that every minute costs money sure hit close to home.

Originally, I was looking to engraving as being able to do something that was a pleasure, gave me satisfaction, a sense of accomplishment and hopefully supplement my reduced income when I took early retirement.

My plan needs to change since my job was eliminated through outsourcing and my engraving skills are not at the level I had anticipated when I no longer had the salary I was accustomed to.

Fortunately, I am not in a sink or swim situation but time will tell if I can manage to turn my passion for engraving into a money earning activity.

It is great to have resources such as this forum to help in that transition.

Peter

 

[Christopher Malouf]

Peter,

I was an IT contract consultant. Ripped out Banyan, Novell and replaced it with NT. You would have hated me .... all the permanent employees did. I ripped out their networks, replaced them with something that turned out to be much much worse and walked out the door when it was done. Managers and their magazines ... sheesh!!

Even the outsourced get outsourced. When Microsoft started giving away MCSEs, companies didn't really care that I was certified and working with NT since the beginning .... they just wanted a fresh, warm body with the same cert for half the price and that was it. Whatever looked good on the balance sheet.

An old friend once said ... "The only time anyone knows you're doing your job is when nothing's broken."

Nuff said there. You, (we) are in a much much better place now. No one can take away the sense of acomplishment any more.

Regards,

Chris

 

[Ron Smith]

Yeah Brian, and you ain't earning if your hands aren't movin', so it looks like you have a solid handle on it. I know this topic isn't discussed much amongst engravers and it is pertinant. Good input!

Chris, let me tell you, I agree there is nothing as great as being your own man, and you can control your own destiny. No one can pull that perverbial rug out from under you, and you are sort of creating your own empire in spite of the struggle. I really think that is the way a man should be made, and money can't replace that self sufficiency.

 

[pilkguns]

If the phone rings, stop the watch.Re-start when you resume cutting.

Very good thread, should be mandantory reading for all aspiring engravers. Sam or Andrew needs to archive this info, maybe in addition to Andrew's pricing info.

As to the phone ringing, a working engraver needs to have a headset so that talking on the phone does not prevent your hands from putting chips on the floor. Your customer or friend calling to gossip will have to get used to the brrrr of the machine in the background. A $300-400 headset is cheap when you start to calculate lost time due to phone calls. This not to take away from Brian's point that you need to have an exact amount of time in what you are working on. I used a kitchen timer that counted down in 30 min increments. When 30 min went by it beeped, I hit reset, made a little tic mark and kept cutting. At the end of a project, I added up all of my tic marks.

The other thing that a working engraver has to allow time for is injuries. It is something that I seem to have personal experience with right now. I fell off of a hay truck last Sunday and have my right forearm in a cast, so I am typing with one finger on my right hand.

 

[KCSteve]

Scott

Sorry to hear about your fall! Hopefully it was a minor enough break to heal up fast.

Brian

I picked up a cheap time clock - the kind that stamps the time on paper cards - to track my time. The nice thing is that all you have to do is write the project info at the top and you can have a permanent record of how long you took. If I'm doing something in sections I make a note to the side of the interval as to what I was doing.

Not working for money yet (except an occasional eBay sale) but I know I'll need to know this stuff when I do.

 

[Ron Smith]

Brian, one of the reasons I brought it up was because we are helping to teach students how to use their tools, but no one is teaching them how to survive...............

Peter, your engraving skills only have to be as good as the people you are selling it too, unless of course it is horrible at this point. You certainly don't want to put garbage out there, and you want your work to be professional looking, so you have to learn to use your tools first.

People are very forgiving, and when it comes to production work, you would be surprised with what they are happy with. Now if you are talking about competing in the fine art arena, that is another matter, and I know that when you attend the classes taught by master emgravers you want to imulate their moves etc, but again, you are in an invironment there where all you get exposed to is perfection. The general public can't afford that, so you fit into a spot as a beginner that is relative to what you are able to produce, as long as you do quality in the process. But making money this way has more to do with the size of the job (quick job, quick money). If you can pop out a nice job for thirty or forty bucks, do it, but always tried to give them a little extra, always giving them a little better than they expected. That makes happy customers.

Don't get out there into the art arena until you come up to certain standards. Keep it simple. You will make more money there than you will doing masterpieces until you get a magnanimus reputation. In that case, collectors are buying your name as well as the quality of your work with possibly uniqueness thrown into the mix.

I see it as a ladder. You start at the bottom rung and work your way up changing rungs and changing clients at the same time. This is the way it goes. You deal almost totally with ignorance at first, and as you move up the ladder and want to improve, you have to leave that ignorance behind and move into a higher class of client to match your higher class work.

You laid it out well, but you have to adjust and adapt, and there is an awful lot to learn about doing your own thing.

My reccomendation has always been diversify. You have to do that to survive. Put your lovely work on anything and everything people will pay you for. Get some mass production ideas going too. They will help you through the desert when the water stops flowing, if you know what I mean. Think of ways to get payed more than once for the same job, i.e. using transfers and series stuff, plastic copies as decorative ornaments to sell. It is boring, but profitable.

I know you are already dong this Brian. You are engraving full time. But it is good information for those who haven't thought of it yet.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Cheap work attracts cheap customers who then tell all their cheap friends and before you know it you are locked into a cheap market. Nothing wrong with that, if that’s what you want to do. People do not value cheap anything so therefore they don’t value you or your work if it’s cheap.

Personally I think pricing your work is also about confidence and belief in yourself and what you do. That’s providing you have the technical skill to do good work.

Never price your work according to the opposition. That is a sure fire way to court disaster. Your opposition could be working 15 hour days and starving for all you know.

Don’t forget, bargaining, going the extra mile, negotiating and all those other wonderful expressions we have are another way of saying that you will make less money.

If you charge $45 for a whatsit, then you need to make X whatsits to make a living. If you charge $90 a whatsit, then you only need half of X whatsits to make a living.

Price your work for your ability. If you are slow does not mean you should earn less money. If you are fast does not mean you should charge less. Part of the reason for being self employed is to make money.

Customers treat you how you let them. If you don’t value your work……….then why should they? If you are under pricing your work and constantly on the breadline, then why should the customer care?

Your price structure has to reflect everything involved in self employment. That includes overheads, taxes, profit, holidays, medical insurance, upgrading tools, and down time. And there is a lot more downtime than most people realize. Being self employed does not have to mean that you work 10-12 hours a day 7 days a week. You still have the right to earn good money, enjoy your family, take holidays and go out and have some fun.

Always price your work on what you want out of life and don’t be afraid to look someone in the eye and say “That will be X amountâ€. If the customer starts bargaining…………walk away or better yet, send him off to the cheap guy. Let the cheap guy be a slave to his workbench and have all the associated hassles with it.

Well, that’s my 2 cents worth

Cheers
Andrew


P.S. Scott.........really sorry to hear about your accident. Hope all will be better for you as quickly as possible.

 

[BrianPowley]

Ron, I strongly agree with everything you said, and especially the "DIVERSIFY" part. The only problem a lot of people have is in their definition of DIVERSIFY.They think that they have to do cheap work as well as expensive work. That leads them instead to DI-WORSIFY.
I recommend them to do their best, just do less of it on the lower end items.
Many people never really get a handle on success, either.
Success is YOUR definition. And many should realize that success is often achieved after a series of failures.
Thomas Edison invented the light bulb only because he ran out of ways to fail. Think about that. He conducted over 14,000 experiments before success....many of us would've given up after just a few.
Failure isn't necessarily a bad thing. Your perception on failure can be.


Andrew...Right on....Right on!
Many customers look for 3 things:
1. Quality work----80% still want quality work. The other 20% are price shoppers,they are NOT your customers. The contractor that wins the bid war with the price shopper really loses.
You get to do the job and not only do you get to lose money, but it keeps you away from the work that is profitable.
2.Do what you say you would do--You told the customer what the job would be, no go and do the work you described.
3.Do the job when you said you would do it.

I like to use the phrase: Under-promise/Over-deliver.



Here's a poem from my early entrepreneurship days, forever burned in my mind:

I bargained with Life for a Penny
and Life would pay no more,
However I begged at evening
when I counted my scanty store.

For Life is a just employer
He gives you what you ask,
but once you have set the wages,
Why,you must bear the task.

I worked for a menials hire
only to learn dismayed,
that any wage I had asked of Life,
Life would have willingly paid.