A beginner question

[lylekelley3]

Hey guys! I am re-learning the art of hammer and chisel engraving after 20 years off. I used to engrave a little on BP rifles back in the 70's and early 80's I can't remember a whole lot about it, but something that I have seen in this forum puzzles me. I see advice to new people telling them not to "polish after engraving" and I can see the obvious resons why, (keeping the finish consistant when you are working on a customers supplied gun) but how do you remove the tiny burr that is raised on each side of an engraved line? It doesn't seem to matter how sharp my tool is, it leaves a slight burr edge along each side of the engraved line. How do you remove this and still retain the surface finish?

 

[pilkguns]

Because of the ripping nature of the engraving process, you will always have some sort of a burr present after engraving. The only way to remove it is some sort of sandpaper, normally I will use 400 or 600 grit paper to start with, and then have to refinish whatever style was on the metal orginally or at what you want it to be finally. Of course if you are cutting through blueing, then you are stuck with the burr, but this is only done for cheap jobs.

 

[michaelp]

I have had good luck rubbing over cut lettering with a small wood block of hardwood or a piece of copper block. but I only do this on cheaper lettering jobs, like where someone needs their name and town engraved real small on a class III firearm

 

[Ray Cover]

I alway hit mine with a light brush of paper too just to take that bur off. According to Christian D. the Italians even do this with their fine bulino engravings.

If you do this you must have the paper backed with either a hard rubber eraser or a block so as to avoid rounding corners.

One thing you definitely do not want to do is sand or buff in such a way as to round corners so cuts are no longer sharp.

This is one of those issues that you find different folks differ on. some will say NEVER under any circumstances touch it once its cut. Others like myself do just enough to cut the bur. So far I have never had anyone look at a piece of my work and say, "Ray you screwed that up taking that bur off"

Ray

 

[Ron Smith]

Lyle, I finish over my work all of the time throughout the process. The burs are sometimes caused at the end of the cut, but I think if you are leaving a bur along the edge of the cut you may have a wedge type point. Proper tool geometry is essential to eliminate or minimize burs. The bur at the end of the cut is somewhat relative to the softness of the metal too. As long as you know good finishing techniques and can replace the original look, you shouldn't worry. When engraving on gun steel you are working on bare steel and you can finish it any way you want to enhance the engraving, particularly Bulino. As was said, the italians finish over their work all through the process too. You can't knock their results and that is what matters......

Rounding corners and lettering is usually caused by a buffing process. A flat block will get the surface crisp and the finer you sand, the less you would have to use the buff. In the case of muzzle loaders where you must buff to get the original finish back, you might want to leave the burs unless you make a scratch or something....Ron S

 

[fegarex]

I think the key word used was "polish". The thing you don't want to happen is to give a nice engraving job to a bluer or metal finisher and let them attack it with the buffing wheels. Careful block sanding and hand polishing is needed for firearms engraving. Jewelry work and lettering may take a different method.

 

[lylekelley3]

Burr question

Thanks everyone for the quick and helpful answers.

pilkguns: I do remember doing a little fine sanding with emery cloth in the 600 range. But I wasn't sure.

michaelp: I never thought of a copper block, I'll have to give it a try!

Ray Cover: Yep, I have a few chunks of rubber to back up the emery cloth on irregular surfaces. I thought that keeping the cut lines sharp was important.

Ron Smith: I am pretty sure my tool geometry is good, I keep a face between 45 and 50 degrees on a square (90) tool, with a .010 to .020 heel. I have been practicing on a copper plate. I knew that since a lot of the engraving on muzzleloaders would be on brass, the softer materials would leave a more pronounced burr.

It's been more than 20 years since worked in the gun shop with my Dad. He taught me the "Hammer and chisel" method, but it's a 20 minute drive to his shop, and I like to get other opinions when I have a question.

 

[monk]

there's another school of thought as well; do your cuts in such a manner that eliminates all burs. send me 22 thousand dollars cash in an old shoebox and i'll tell you how it's done !

 

[lylekelley3]

Monk

Actually, If I had that kind of cash, just laying around, I would sign up for some of the classes that are offered by some of the artists that frequent this site (including you). But, as it is, I have one kid in college, one going in this fall, and I am saving up to put another one through in about 6 more years. My shoebox has so many holes, the mice think it's a Holiday Inn.

 

[gail.m]

Well, FWIW, I clean up my practice plates with the suede side of a piece of soft leather such as used for a pair of show chaps, or the tongue from an old boot. I have found it to work on steel, brass, or silver. I usually don't have any huge burs or furrows though. It seems also to act as a buff on the brass and silver. Just make sure the leather is clean.
Hope this helps someone.
gailm

 

[Roger Bleile]

Lyle,

I was wondering if your dad is someone us older engravers might know. He is not Lance Kelley by chance?

Roger

 

[monk]

a kid in college- i should send you 22 ! good luck !

 

[richard hall]

lyle, monk is going thru his second childhood, he would be like a three year old at x-mas, if you send him the old shoebox. now, monk knows what he is doing,i sent him a picture of my work, he instructed me to buy 20 l.b. sledge. had trouble with tool digging in, monk says needs more heel, still had trouble, we put heel on sledge, cuts like a knife thru hot butter now.

 

[lylekelley3]

Questions

Thanks everyone, for the ideas.

Roger Bleile - My Dad is probably more well known in the black powder circles, He is Howard Kelley, maker of "Old Reliable Barrels". He has built muzzleloaders (from scratch mostly) for the past 35+ years. He has done his own engraving, and engraved for others, since the late 70's. He is an old time hammer and chisel engraver. He has won awards for his complete rifles, and he gets plenty of jobs engraving for owners of BP guns. He retired from working in the armory at the National Muzzleloading Associations, National Shoot in Friendship, IN, in the early 90's. He now concentrates on building a few rifles a year, and working in the barrel making business, which my sister and her husband inherited from him.

I grew up in his home machine shop, and learned engraving in the late 70's, then got too busy with "Life" and got away from it. He is getting to the point where he will have to quit engraving some time in the next 5-10 years or so, and I want to carry on the family tradition. I have always been an amature (sp?) artist, painting, drawing and the like, and although I love and respect the old masters, I have never studied their styles or methods though. When I do get to making my own scratches, I will probably inject my own view and style into the designs.

Again, Thank you all for the help, and I will keep you informed of my progress.

Lyle Kelley

 

[Weldon47]

Hi,

Though I agree that minimal sanding is best, like Scott, I use 400 or 600 grit paper to take off the burrs. Keep in mind, with practice (and the correct tool angles) you will raise minimal burrs (especially when compared to your efforts in the beginning).
For sanding, I use a mesquite block about 1" x 3" with a thick piece of leather glued on one side as a sanding block. I will step up ( 800, 1000, 1500, etc..) to 2000 grit if necessary. While polishing with a buffer can be done, it is a good way to ruin your efforts real fast, especially on very delicate work; avoid if possible or have it done by someone extremely skilled at that process!

Weldon

 

[pilkguns]

Dear Weldon,
is that mesquite wood a requirement to get the sanding perfect? You know I'm in Tennessee, and we have trees like oak, persimmon, maple and locust in the hardwood department. Its so durn spensive to import that furrin' wood so will any of my local stuff work? if not , what do you recommend as a substitute? will a light steel backing be okay on softer woods to stiffen that thing up? Someone suggested grinding up blue pills and sprinkling them on the leather. Oh, is the weight of the leather important as well? I don't want to scrub too hard on the engraving, or it may get hard to see.

Muddled in Monteagle

 

[Weldon47]

Scott,

You're such a smarty-pants; Yes mesquite is required to get the perfect "look". I'll send you some next time I get a chance!
Seriously, the leather backing is about 1/8 thick (it was a scrap & I can't remember the hide weight). Cork backing or a thick piece of cork by itself will accomplish the same thing. Padding the sanding block with something resilient seems to produce a better finish than sandpaper on a wooden block (for me, anyway).
As for the "blue pills"; you are on your own!

Weldon

 

[Ravenhill]

I too was wondering about burr free cutting. Also I wold think 400-600 paper to be way too coarse for really fine shading? I have been using 1000-2000 but being able to cut witout burrs in the first place would be great.

 

[lylekelley3]

Burr Free

Well, I have noticed that the harder materials seem to leave a minimal burr, I have even left it on a couple of practice works, but the burr on brass and other softer materials seem too large reguardless of the sharpening methods or tool geometry (and yes I have tried quite a few different angles).

I did find that the finest emory cloth, backed by a hard rubber block, seems to do the trick, for a final polish. I usually start with a 400-600 and then go up from there. I also have a few fine "Brightboy" sticks (rubber with fine abrasive in it) that seem to work good too, and the green polishing points in my rotary hand piece are good for working the surface down before engraving, but be careful using them on the softer materials, they can work too fast. I'm not quite up to the "fine shading" level yet, still working on the coarse bits for the time being. When I get to that point, I will have to look into different methods, and tools.

Lyle

 

[JJ Roberts]

Lyle,
How do you sharpen your tools? Do you have a Powerhone..with dual angle..or do you eye ball it on a sharpening stone? As Weldon said about correct tool angle..every imporant! I find that I get a slight burr after cutting, but I do not sand I take a thin piece of brass place it on the work and tap it with the ball peen end of the chasing hammer..this works for me.

Yours truly,