Question: about stippling

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

I know I already asked something similar.
Problem with my stippling is that no mater how many passes I do on backgrounds stippling, and no mater what angle, the black don't show in all angles. I tried to shorten the stippling tool so I can use it 90° on the surface, but even then when turning the object it does not look really equal tone.

Some paint can solve that of course, and I will try some oxidizing on my Ti bracelet, just on the background to solve this problem.

But can someone tell me if I'm doing something wrong, or doe we all struggle with this?

arnaud

 

[leroytwohawks]

Arnaud,

I'm having trouble with the same thing, as I was doing stipple on a gold ring some angles look fine others angles part stand out more than the rest. If I could keep the piece at the same angle through out the entire stippleing process it would look fine, but to get into some of the small places I have to turn the piece so the angle of the stipple changes and it turn moves the angle of reflection. So I hope for yours and my sake there is a answer.:big grin:

In the picture below it looks fine but that's only one angle

Kevin

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Kevin, for sure we can't be the only ones having noticed this.
My bracelet background looks really black in different angles, but not all. And making it look black in all angles is impossible without blackening in my opinion.
But even when it looks white, it should have a equal structure in my opinion.

The parts I stippled first look the best now, but I know that is because of some dirt that has filled the stippling dots.

arnaud

 

[KCSteve]

I have the same problems as you guys, but in theory the right design on your stippling point will minimize this.

I say 'in theory' because I haven't gotten it to work for me yet, but I also haven't made a really good point the way I've been told works.

And that way is to make a pretty small point (so you can get into the corners & such) with a pyramidal point. My notes aren't handy but basically use something like the GRS Dual angle fixture to make a very regular pyramid - 4 sided, about a 30 degree angle (I think), then lightly dub the point so it's not too pointy. I've been using an octagonal point but I need to make it smaller.

I believe the idea is that with a very regular point you get a more uniform dot that has about the same reflection from all angles. If your point is irregular then it will reflect more in one direction than others and changes in your angle of attack will be more obvious.

Tim Herman I know has a stippling point design that gives a very nice black. I think the one I'm describing is close to his but like I said, my notes are in another room so I may be totally bungling the description. :beat up:

 

[Billzach]

Steve
You are going to get some stippling practice when you finish your half of the joint coin carving we are doing as the top of the subject,s hat has been stippled.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Thank you but this doesn't answer my problem. Don't really know if I have a problem.
I have made me different stippling tools, also 30° pyramid, and I have no trouble reaching all places.
My points are perfectly round and polisched.
With the naked eye the background also look good, even looking at it at an angle the background does not show black but a bit of reflection.
Looking at some magnification however it doesn't look that perfect as I wish it to be.
And as a bracelet is not flat, I try to imagine how it will look, and sure it will not be black all the way unless some help like Rustoleum, blackening silver, or oxidizing Ti .

So I still hope one will answer this.
I have tried heavy dots punches, fragile ones, they all look good but not really uniform when looking at it with magnification.

arnaud

 

[leroytwohawks]

Well Arnaud, at least most people don't carry a loop in there pockets like I'm sure many of us do!!!!

Kevin

 

[tundratrekers@mtaonline.n]

stippling

Arnaud,try a 3-4 sided punch,with 3-4 flat sides. God Bless,mike

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

To illustrate what I see in one particular angle is this, and I prefer not to see it like this.

arnaud

 

[jetta77]

Arnaud, is this sterling? I use a a carbide tip w a needle poing, just rotate and carbide bit on a diamond stone and get it super sharp, like sharper than a hypordermic needle. It gives me a good black on steel, never done anything else except gold, gold doesnt get black.

 

[Peter E]

Arnaud,
I think you answererd your question in that "ink" or paint will solve the problem. When you stipple, you are "roughing up" the surface so it will not reflect light. The absence of light makes it look black from, as you have noticed, some angles.

When you look at it from a non direct angle such as 45 degrees, you see the color of the metal. Also, getting the surface as flat as possible before stippling gives the best results. Then if you ink it, it will look black from EVERY angle.

 

[KCSteve]

I did a quick test, re-grinding one of my stipplers to a 30 degree square pyramid point vs. my regular old round one.

The pyramid did seem to provide a field that was more resistant to the angle problem.

With both I stippled an area with the point coming pretty much straight in (close to 90), then I both rotated the piece 90 degrees and lowered my hand so the point was coming in at more of a 45 - 60 degree angle and stippled a patch next to the first one.

With my plain old round point it was easy to see the difference between the two areas but with the 30 degree square pyramid it was less obvious. Still found an angle where it was easy to see, but there were more angles where I couldn't see the difference.

Any kind of color takes care of the problem completely but I understand and agree with your desire to not need it.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Thank you all for your support, seems no one has the answer.
Made me another carbide stippling tool by putting the bur in my rotary hand piece and while turning I put it on the diamond wheel. Perfectly round of course.
Tried different angles, to sharp and the point will break.
I think the more small stipples the more uniform the background texture will look.
I have no problem making the background really black with just stippling, The only problem is that the texture does not look perfect equal when looking at it at some angles.

Like Peter says, probably only one solution; using some blackening paint or whatever.

arnaud

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Ditto Jeff. You could try using a round/needle C-Max point. It's what I use and it works better than a pyramid. Also, when stippling backgrounds I find it best if I lower the background first with a flat. To make a first rate job this involves cutting another line around all elements of the scroll before cutting down the background and then stippling.

If you are just surface stippling it's important that you remove the bur thrown up by the point with a scrapper. Then re-stipple. Sometimes you may have to remove the bur, gently, 2, 3 or even 4 times to get a good result which can be very time consuming.

Some people think that stippling a background is a quick, labour and time saving method. It is when done crudely, but when it's done well it takes as long as single point cutting away a background.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Jeff, I will try that using a super sharp one.
And no, this is not Sterling but Titanium,

Marcus, I removed the background and first cut the edges with a small 90° parallel heel, should be the same as a flat.
But as you say stippling is very time consuming, so in a way instead of stippling the background I also could use a Bulino tool and add the dots one by one?

arnaud

 

[Tira]

Arnaud,

This light reflecting problem has plagued me for years - especially on large motorcycle parts. The best advise I can give you is to make a tool that you can replicate (like your 30 degree pyramid) so that if it breaks you can reform it to the same shape to get the same mark. The other piece of advise I can give you is that you have to be very conscious of how you are going to view the piece. I usually go in and move it whatever way to get the entire background stippled. Then I hold the piece in one direction and go over the entire background lightly to "comb" the piece in one direction. Think of suede leather. You brush it one way and you have one value of color, brush it the other and you have another value. This, of course, is time consuming.... You don't have to go over every spot in this process. I usually move in a small circular motion being careful to evenly cover the area, but not get too near the sides so as to ding the cuts.

I will also do this usually at one time (the combing process). It seems that the light is very sensitive to the direction the tool is held and your orientation to the piece as you do this. As you said, if you will fill it with paint, etc. it doesn't matter as much - but if you have shine - and the larger the piece the more pronounced it is - you have to be careful. Good luck!

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Thank you Tira, your explanation make sense to me.
At the same time I aware that it also has to do with the grade of perfection one want to end a particular engraving. When solved one there probably will be another detail that needs atention.

arnaud

 

[Sam]

I use a very sharp round needle point and a lot of power when I stipple. I work the tool deeply into the surface to really kill reflected light. I use carbide and C-Max will work just as well. My machine is set to 4,200 strokes per minute.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Thank you Sam, the 4200 strokes I use as well but as I use the Graversmith, the more strokes a minute, the softer the impact.
Before, some months ago, I used less strokes a minute and it also showed up really black.
I was just using after Tira mentioned, a carbide tool 0,2 mm and I sharpened it into a high polished perfect pyramid, and this seems to work like a want it.
I have shortened the tool so I can use it 90° on the surface.

The only thing, because the stippling tool is so tiny, it takes more time to stipple a particular background part as the dots are much smaller. But I think it makes sense having more equal dots. In a way it does not take more time as it can be donein almost one pass.

I'm going back and stipple some more ours, and if I have solved my problem like I think I already have, I will let you know.
Thanks all for your support on this one, stippling seems easy but it is not.

arnaud

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Found a solution, works for me

Tira, I have to thank you again as you helped me a lot finding a solution.
As you said, having a consistent stippling tool, I again made me the high polished pyramid tool, 30°. It is only 0,2 mm diameter but strong enough not to break.
I don't know if the settings will work for others, as I use a GraverSmith. I use the 4200 spm and on my machine this has the less impact.
So the result is more and smaller dots, Only have to make small turns. Takes a bit more time to fill the background with dots, but they look more equal, even seen under some magnification.
Even looking at them at different angles, the black becomes a bit more gray, but equal tone, and that is what I was looking for.

Your describing "suede effect" was right to the point and I have solved it with your help.

arnaud