Best graver for script and a heel question?

[Patrice Lemee]

First, I have bought and watched Sam's lettering video a couple dozen times. I sharpened a flat graver like he suggested but I have a very hard time getting it to cut like I want. Tried it with a 105 graver (I have the Lyndsay sharpening kit) and I get much better results. My question is, would it be better if I kept trying with the flat graver until I get it or can this be done with a V graver of some sort like I did?

Second question is, what is a short heel compared to a long one.
In my mind I was visualizing the heel lengths much larger than they are I think. Seems we are talking in thou here which translate to a few passes more or less in the sharpening stone.

Thanks for your help.

 

[Dave London]

The V graver will work just fine. Smaller heels turn easier with out damage to the side of the cut. I use a 3000 grit stone for the heels just a slight pass, never tried to measure best guess is 1/4 mm. MTC
YMMV

 

[Patrice Lemee]

Thanks a lot Dave, that's what I wanted to hear. I was wondering if using the V graver was a cop out but if you say both are viable, I will go that way for now.

For the heel, I'll give that a try. I was WAY off with my measurements.

 

[DAK4442]

Patrice, similar to you I initially did my lettering with a 116 with parallel heals. After watching Sam's videos it was my opinion that a flat graver gave the lettering a more elegant look which I wanted for my lettering. It took a little practice (ok s lot of practice) but I've become comfortable using the flat now. If you think about it, a "flat" is just a 90 degree graver with a parallel heel on one side and no heel on the other. The fact that I was working on western bright cut at the time helped with my level of comfort in using a flat? I would suggest not giving up on the flat too soon. Perhaps just work on scooping out the "half moon" cut over and over on a practice plate to develop some muscle memory. When it comes down to it though, either will work and you need to use geometry that works for you...Dan

 

[monk]

flats for me are better. but-- if you get good results, i'm not sure anything else matters much.it is a good idea, however, to practice using different gravers & geometries. you never know, you just might discover a much better way of doing things.
as for heels, no need for a micrometer. about the width of a hair will do. here in pa., some would say just a squeek or 2.

 

[Patrice Lemee]

Thank guys, went back and tried a few more with the flat and I think that I may be able to get better results in the end with it like you said Dan.
But in the real tight curves, I am still getting heel drag. Maybe I am cutting too deep or just working on to small a script size for my skill level.
Here are a couple of pics. (with v graver for size reference)

 

[Mike Fennell]

You are coming along nicely, and I don’t think you are cutting too deep or too small.

However, I do believe that you need a bit more slant to your letters, and a more dramatic flare on the upstrokes and downstrokes, that is, the vertical portions of the letters. Cut very thin and light on the horizontal portions of the letter, and gradually roll your graver to the outside of the letter as you enter the upstroke or downstroke. This will cause your letters to appear more graceful and more compelling.

For examples of the proper slant and flare, search on this site for the thread “ Engraver's Script Instruction”. You can find a host of threads on this site concerning lettering and graver geometries for lettering.

You may also wish to study J. M. Bergling’s 4-volume set of books concerning lettering.

Keep your graver very sharp, and keep the heel very short, in order to avoid heel drag on the very tight turns required by script lettering. Experiment with various gravers. A highly polished heel will bring sparkle and life to your letters.

In order to compensate for wear on items that will be handled a lot, I cut a little deeper, using anywhere from a 90 degree to a 116 degree, depending upon the amount of expected wear. For Items that will be rarely handled, such as a baby cup, I use a 120 and cut fairly shallow. Of course, a flat can do it all. Cutting elegant script is a very satisfying experience.

 

[BES]

Hello Patrice!
Look how the guy is controlled with a simple 90º Hand Push Engraving.
In this video, well illustrates the principle construction and engraving.
Initially, the individual elements in an elementary school, sticks, s-curves.
And then, and the letters of these elements.

https://youtu.be/9dhTS0LuiJ0

sorry for bad English

 

[sam]

A common error students make is not rolling the graver to achieve the width needed in brightcut lettering, and it appears to me that's what you're doing. The depth doesn't necessarily increase to make the letter wider. It's the rolling of the graver that produces the width.

There is no best graver for script lettering, just what you prefer. I like a flat, but many engravers use various V-gravers of different geometries. And keep in mind that for centuries these V-gravers were sharpened by hand with no knowledge of what the geometry (in degrees) actually was. I have dozens of antique gravers of various widths, and I imagine they all cut lettering perfectly in the hands of the guy who sharpened them.

 

[BES]

Sam, I completely agree with Your response.
The geometry of the gravers can be anything.
The main thing is a lot of time spent on practice.

 

[James]

Easy to see from your practice you are using the flat for both shade strokes and hairlines.watch same video again and note he cuts shade lines with flat (beautifully)and hair lines with 120 parellel heel square.they are separate cuts.that said, I use a 120 now for both.The trick with a 120 is to remember the wider the shade the deeper the cut to maintain control,or you get 'flutter' as you lay the graver over,gradually reduce the cut depth as you come out of cut. last, outline edge of shade with a superfine outline cut .Final tip,my 'textbook' is transfers from Berglings books , endless fun and learning (I'm odd, I enjoy cutting lettering and monograms!)

 

[BES]

Onglette Graver

Sam, because this post is concerned geometry graver,
I want to ask.

I watched Your video
Hand Push Engraving With the Speitzer/Onglette Graver
https://youtu.be/8Zv2bbbEGPE

I have a question - such as the geometry of the tool in this video is only suitable when working with a microscope?


When working with a microscope vices are at the lower abdomen (the navel)
relaxed position of the hands on the arms of the chair level.

I use Optivisor
I have much to tilt the (zoom in) head to the vise
(Due to the focal length)
vices are at chest level
hands shoulder height (just below)

That is, when a tool geometry
hands are in an unnatural position.

In this position, you can work with the geometry of the tool 20º heel?
Or is it better to use 0-5-10º heel?

 

[Steve L S]

Hello Patrice!
Look how the guy is controlled with a simple 90º Hand Push Engraving.
In this video, well illustrates the principle construction and engraving.
Initially, the individual elements in an elementary school, sticks, s-curves.
And then, and the letters of these elements.

https://youtu.be/9dhTS0LuiJ0

sorry for bad English

Eric,

I think Senor Orfebre is using a flat to cut everything, even the name ' Romina". Perhaps you mean he is using the flat on its corner and turning it into virtually a 90 degree square graver?

In one of his excellent previous videos he shows how he prepares a flat graver and gives it a final polish on a small rubber pad sprinkled with white powder. I do not speak spanish so I wonder what that powder is? I cannot think it is talcum powder maybe it is 'whiting' which is what I use to prepare copper plate for vitreous enamelling

Just to add to the confusion I use a flat graver with 35 degree face and 0.15mm micro heel for shade lines and an onglette with 1mm rounded heel , 35 degree face for hairlines, but raise my elbow very slightly when going around corners. Both too fragile for hard metals which will be no good for Patrice as a knifemaker, but fine for me cutting copper , brass and silver.

Steve

 

[RDP]

Eric,

I think Senor Orfebre is using a flat to cut everything, even the name ' Romina". Perhaps you mean he is using the flat on its corner and turning it into virtually a 90 degree square graver?

In one of his excellent previous videos he shows how he prepares a flat graver and gives it a final polish on a small rubber pad sprinkled with white powder. I do not speak spanish so I wonder what that powder is? I cannot think it is talcum powder maybe it is 'whiting' which is what I use to prepare copper plate for vitreous enamelling

Just to add to the confusion I use a flat graver with 35 degree face and 0.15mm micro heel for shade lines and an onglette with 1mm rounded heel , 35 degree face for hairlines, but raise my elbow very slightly when going around corners. Both too fragile for hard metals which will be no good for Patrice as a knifemaker, but fine for me cutting copper , brass and silver.

Steve

Steve, Orfebre means Goldsmith, his name is Sebastian Lopez, he is from Argentina, I think he is a member of this forum, that's diamond powder he uses on a well pressed leather pad to polish his graver. if you look at all his videos,
I don't think he uses any other graver geometry.

Richard.

 

[Patrice Lemee]

You gentlemen are so nice to share your knowledge with a newbie like me, a great big thank you.

I thought I'd show you a couple of pics of my setup so you know what I am working with.

First the Jeweler/Engraving bench.


Close-up of the scope and vise.


And my old Meister.


A few of the flat graver I am using.




And finally, with your advices, here is where I am at. Of course I still need to go over it a few times before I understand it all and I also need to find the books mentioned.
But I can see progress in some areas. The last on the bottom was done only with a 116 v graver which I have an easier time to control for now. The other 3 with a combination of flat and 116.


On top of everything, a few things that I still need to master:
1) How to cut those swirls with a dot at the end of some letters.
2) The graver running away from me, probably because my lack of control with the pedal. (side note, my meister doesn't work for some reason at the faster speed, the belt loosens too much when you push the speed lever all the way up)

Anyway, I think I rambled enough for one post.
Again I am very grateful for all your help. I will go over your advices again and see if I can improve. I'll post more results if it's ok.

 

[BES]

Well, with this it was necessary to begin ...
What you have excellent equipment and has the experience of the jeweler.

I can only dream of such a workshop.
It will help only permanent employment drawing and exercises engraved on the bench.

 

[speeedy6]

Patrice, like Sams video shows, be sure to draw both the inside and outside of the letter. That gives you a line to cut to and from concerning the width of the cut. And you may need to slow down,since I'm a beginner too, I've found the best speed to cut lettering is, the agonizingly slow speed. Try turning up the magnification and go super slow. That allows you to see the tool cutting exactly where it needs to cut for the best results. The layout is as important as the cutting.

 

[gcleaker]

Your work space shows outside of the box thinking, as I look at your scope stand I am saying to myself why did I not think of that! What did you use to make your vise stand?

 

[sam]

Sam, because this post is concerned geometry graver,
I want to ask.

I watched Your video
Hand Push Engraving With the Speitzer/Onglette Graver
https://youtu.be/8Zv2bbbEGPE

I have a question - such as the geometry of the tool in this video is only suitable when working with a microscope?

These gravers work fine with or without a microscope.

 

[BES]

Sam thanks!
I'll try to make some graver with this geometry, and see how they work.