Copying the work of other engravers

sam

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Thread starter #1
Ladies & gentlemen: Effective immediately: If you post photos of engraving you have copied, please give credit in your post to the engraver's work you have duplicated, as well as assurances you're not going to sell it.

We have all copied at some point in order to learn. Please be respectful of the work of others and request permission before you copy their engraving. I don't want our members being scared to publish photos of their engraving because they fear another engraver is going copy it and sell it.

~Sam
 

Arnaud Van Tilburgh

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#2
Sure I agree that one can not copy the work of an other without permission.
As not everyone is able or willing to make a design first, but wants to engrave, I was thinking perhaps it is a good idea to share some Copyright Free Designs.

At least I would not mind if some of mine would be used by other engravers. Of course I would be pleased at least to know who used one of my designs for a particular purpose.

So as this is a Café without purpose to make any financial profit, we could have a Gallery where Café members can post and chare their Royalty Free Designs.

I don’t know if many of you are interested in sharing designs, but I think it could be a contribute to the Art of engraving.
And the ones who also like to make designs for others could have more challenges this way.

What do you think?

arnaud
 

Dulltool

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#3
I would think it would be pretty hard to come up with a design that is truly original these days. I look at some of my Grandfathers work from the 1920's (engravings) and some of the stuff being done today and it all seems so very familiar.

I am just saying...... We are all influenced by someone or something as we hone in on our own gig and style.... For me it was my Grandfather John Hanck and well maybe Weldon... and Ron S. or was it all those engraved cowboy Colts and Winchesters from the 1800's :)
 

sam

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Thread starter #4
Dennis: Yes, there are a lot of similarities in ornamental design. There are also a lot of designs which are stylistically unique to the engraver who created them. The problem is that there are two instances I've been made aware of where engravers have traced another engraver's work. One for profit and one for practice. Practice is one thing and selling someone else's design is another. If this persists, then engravers who have been stung by this will be very hesitant to share ideas, technique, and photos of their work.

1.) Ask permission before tracing another engraver's work.
2.) Don't sell another engraver's designs.


As our friend Rod Cameron said, "use another person's design as a springboard, and not as a landing strip".

Arnaud: An exchange of copyright free designs is an excellent idea. I'm not opposed to adding a Gallery section specifically for that purpose if members want it. My only concern is keeping the file sizes small for disk and bandwidth reasons. / ~Sam
 

Arnaud Van Tilburgh

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#5
Sam, I understand your concern about bandwidth. But the file size of a design does not have to bigger than a photo.
Now there is a giant amount of photos in the gallery, but not that much designs.
But of course the choice is up to you and members have to show interests for Gallery Designs.

Instead of a gallery with only Free designs, perhaps it is a good idea to have a parameter that shows which are free and which are not.

arnaud
 

Marrinan

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#6
informational-copyright need not be declared, all original work and certain deviation rights are automatic when a work of art is displayed (on the net is displayed)
When experts in the field determine that "original" has been established then infringement can occur

tracing originality can be tricky but not insurmountable

When I worked in the field of instructional design and curriculum development we faced these issues on a daily basis. There are many techniques established by unique works as established by experts (many would say that some of those who frequent these forums would be the experts called into court) that would probably qualify-I am thinking of the color added to engraving based on uniquely established techniques for example (the establishment of any specific mentioned would fall to legal experts not me) would probably be protected. The use of a particular style of leaf would not be protected unless the leaf was in public domain and the application could be established as unique and original.

Coping the art of another is a copyright infringement and the author is entitled to compensation -period. There are fair use issues and clauses that come into play but coping is an infringement. I would mention that use does not establish ownership though-think of the WWF (World Wrestling Federation and the World Wildlife Fund) the wildlife fund won the suit or name "Polo"-long a game played world wide originating in India but Ralph Lorenz now owns it.

The bottom line is every unique piece of art displayed on the internet is automatically copyrighted unless the author specifically releases the rights in writing - Fred




COPYRIGHT LAW – SOME BASICS
What Copyright Protects
• An “original” work of authorship that is fixed in a tangible medium of
expression (e.g., literary, musical, dramatic, choreographic, pictorial, graphic,
sculptural, audiovisual, and architectural works) – requires a minimal degree of
creativity; no quality requirement
• Embodiment is sufficiently permanent to permit it to be perceived for a period of
more than transitory duration (e.g., e-mails are protected)
• Ideas themselves are not protected (unrecorded oral expression is not protected)
• Facts are not protected, but compilations may be
• U.S. government documents are not protected
• Protection from the moment of creation: Notice, registration with the U.S. Copyright
Office, and publication are not required for copyright protection (but are helpful in
the event of litigation)
• Works on the Internet are protected by copyright to the same extent as other works
Ownership
• The creator is the owner (two or more creators may be joint owners with joint rights)
• “Works for hire” – works created by employees within the scope of their employment
generally belong to the employer
• Copyright ownership and credit are not the same – credit may always be given to
participants in a project, even if someone else holds the copyright
Duration and Extent of Protection
• For current works, copyright protection lasts for life of the author + 70 years (the
default assumption is that someone has copyright to the work, even if it is available
on the Internet)
• “Works for hire” are protected for 95 years after first publication or 120 years after
creation of the work, whichever expires first
• Works no longer protected by copyright are in the “public domain”
{00038035.2 / MAXWELL}2
• If you need to make an informed decision about whether a work is still protected by
copyright, see, e.g., Peter B. Hirtle, “Copyright Term and the Public Domain in the
United States,” http://www.copyright.cornell.edu/public_domain/copyrightterm.pdf
(last updated January 1, 2009).
Exclusive Rights of Copyright Owners
• Reproduction of the work in whole or in part
• Preparation of derivative works (e.g., translations, musical arrangements,
dramatizations, sound recordings, and second editions)
• Distribution of copies of the work to the public by sale, gift, rental, loan, or other
transfer (with exception of “first sale doctrine”)
• Public performance of the work
• Public display of the work
• These rights can be divided up among various parties using contracts
Fair Use of Works by Others – an exception to the monopoly of rights held by the
copyright owner. Factors that are taken into account on a case-by-case basis:
• Purpose and character of the use (e.g., personal, educational, transformative,
commercial)
• Nature of the work being used (e.g., factual, creative)
• Amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the whole (both
quantitative and qualitative)
• Effect on the market for the original (for the particular type of use)
There is an extremely helpful “fair use checklist” put out by Columbia University. If you
use it when doing a fair use analysis and keep it with your records, it is documented
support that you did a good faith analysis before using a work. (Columbia University
Libraries/Information Services Copyright Advisory Office copyright.columbia.edu/fairuse-
checklist).
Classroom Use – Fair Use Applies – no absolute education exemption
• For class preparation a teacher can generally copy a chapter from a book; article;
short story etc. (should not copy entire book)
{00038035.2 / MAXWELL}3
• For distribution in class – can make multiple copies based on brevity and
spontaneity, lack of cumulative effect and if notice is given
• Distribution to class via web – possible, if access is limited to class members and
the work is posted for a period of limited duration (if in doubt, consult with the
Library which does e-reserve)
• Linking to a website is not copyright infringement
• Creation of multi-media work may require releases for music, art, personal
appearances in work. Copyright holders are increasingly aggressive about rights
• Distance education – TEACH ACT – see specific guidance at
www.libraries.rutgers.edu/rul/rr_gateway/research_guides/copyright/copyright
Prepared by:
Jonathan R. Alger, Vice President and General Counsel
Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey
Modified May, 2009 E.Minott minott@oldqueens.rutgers.edu, 732-932-7813
“copyrightbasics.may 2009”
 
Last edited:

Phil Coggan

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#7
I have to thank Sam for bringing this up, as some of you might know this started off with a certain member copying my work and posting it on this forum, and another two that I know of.
Now I don't know what his true intention was but he has also signed it.

This is not an attempt to create work in my style, after all we all take things from works of art etc and use them in our own work, but this is an out and out copy, line for line and cut for cut.

I have had engravers copy a few of my guns before, in fact when I saw the photo's I thought they were mine initially.
I think the mentality is that....he's doing well with that, if I do it I can be in the same boat......WRONG!

Copying is easy, there's no thought, you just do it. Creating ones own style and an original design is not.

Phil
 

sam

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Thread starter #9
If you're in this business long enough it's bound to happen. I remember looking through a Japanese knife collector's magazine and seeing an absolute clone of an engraving job I did which was engraved by a Japanese engraver. In the photo it looked like my work. That's just one of the many times it's happened to me.

Here's an example for you. Guess whose leaf script letter "S" that is? Yup, it's mine from the iGraver tutorial pages, and The Strand Condominiums on Prince Edward Island in Canada decided it's ok to use my photo of my engraving (which is clearly marked with my Copyright notice) for their logo and newspaper ads. I sent them a letter a few months ago, but it's still there and I must spend a ton on legal fees if I want them to stop using it. Bleh.

~Sam
 

Mario Sarto

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#10
It is the same bad thing all over the world ...
Stolen designs, ideas, mind and photos. After more than 50 (i didn't count anymore) telephone calls to people, who use photos and text from my website without permission, i have capitulate. It serves no purpose. Only attorney's fees left and my nerves was on edge.
So i did the only thing, that makes sense in my mind at that time. I have reduced the documents (there was over 150) and do not show all pictures/pieces i did. Well, now with this second version of it it is going better. Much less copies now. It was hard to get all the documents out of the index of Google and other search engines.
Same thing with some pictures i did for wikipedia. I took a photo of brilliants (you can see it here) in 2004. Only one year later this picture turns around the world - even though it is under the "GNU Free Documentation License" - even though it isn't my best photograph of brilliants by far. An other German jeweler used it on his business papers! Nobody cares! In the mind of people everything on the web is free....

Today i am older and much more calm. Phil and Sam, your resentment is an emotion i have devised ;)
Believe me, there is nothing you can do to bar someone make copies. Beyond that i am sure no one really could do the quality you turned out! A copy cut by cut doesn't make a real Phil! Take heart by imagine that only the best things are worth to be copied!
Mario
 

sam

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Thread starter #12
Emotion indeed, Mario!

We can try to do something (like my letter to the company in Canada) but in reality there's not much that can be done other than to try to bring awareness to everyone.

Cheers / ~Sam
 

Arnaud Van Tilburgh

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#14
Sorry to hear that Phil. I was so naive thinking this tread had a different purpose.
I must agree with Mario, besides a goldsmith engraver I’m also a publisher, especially on the Internet. I also know about being copied.

On my website, juwelenanraud, I show almost every design and jewel I made, knowing some will copy the best designs. On the other hand, if I don’t show my work on the Internet, I probably would be out of business.

About Copyright, I post a lot of my work on the Internet, and from the moment I publish them, it is part of proof that it is mine, whatever that means.

And sure it is a shame copying without permission, even when it means that one is good when he is copied.

But as we have here a big community of engravers, and one by one we can’t do much about being copied, wouldn’t it be a good idea pointing at “copiers” by telling their name? At least we are a guild, and I believe that is one of the goals of the guild.

Sam, when I see some photo or text of mine being used by someone else on the Internet, I just send them a invoice. Most of the time they react.

arnaud
 

pilkguns

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#16
An engineer freind of mine and I were talking about waiting at doctor's offices. He said he got tired of waiting one day after one hour and twenty minutes, and left, went back to the office, and wrote a bill for an hour of his time at $88 and sent it to the doctor's office. They paid it, and he said he has never waited more than 5 minutes since.

Actually, on Arnuad's idea, its probably very workable in the US corporate world. A big corporation is liable to pay it without realizing it was not on a PO, and if it was considered, a payment might be considered cheaper than asking their corporate lawyer about it.
 
Last edited:
Joined
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China
#17
Dear Sam, Like your topic,
1.) Ask permission before tracing another engraver's work.
2.) Don't sell another engraver's designs.
For this topic, I'm all for that.
 

jerrywh

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#18
I can't imagine someone good enough to copy Phil Coggan or Ron Smith and then wanting to cheat that way. When you copy, you have created nothing. It is a cowards way to go unless your just trying to learn. Who can name the most famous copier in the world? nobody ,because it is the original that is always remembered. It's the artist not the mimic who is remembered.
 

Arnaud Van Tilburgh

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#19
Jerry, in Belgium we had a great cheater called Han Van Megeren who copied the work of Vermeer, and his work now is worth even more than the ones of Vermeer.
He not really copied the work, but the style. He signed the painting not with his name but with Vermeer.

Just to mention one

arnaud
 
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Daniel Houwer

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#20
Hey, thats something like copying too Arnoud :big grin:
He was Dutch :tiphat:
"Henricus Antonius van Meegeren (Deventer, 10 oktober 1889 – Amsterdam, 30 december 1947) was een Nederlands kunstschilder en kunstvervalser. Hij werd vooral bekend door zijn vervalsingen van werken van Vermeer."
(tekst Wikipedia)
Doesn't matter but I do think he is world famous because of his copies.
 

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