Curves & graver length?

[FL-Flinter]

Pardon my newbie ignorance but I'm more than willing to accept any suggestion on how to get smoother curves on a tight radius.

Part two of this is, and maybe it's tied together but how long should a graver be? (Overall length) Will a longer length give me more control?

 

[sam]

I like my gravers to be just long enough to go slightly past the end of my thumb when holding the handpiece.
Keep your heel very short. About 1/4mm is a good size to minimize heel drag. As you develop more control you'll also get less heel drag smoother cuts in tight curves.

 

[FL-Flinter]

Sam,

Thanks for the heads-up on the heel length. I don't have a handpiece, I'm using a hammer.

 

[sam]

Ah, ok. Heel length should still be very short (1/4mm). My chisel handles are about 5" long (wooden) and the gravers in them average about 2". The Belgian's use a longer steel handle, so I believe graver length for hammer & chisel isn't critical.

 

[FL-Flinter]

I'll try the shorter heel, advice I got was to make the heel length the same as the face width so currently it's about 0.020" long.

It's probably just me not moving the graver properly. I took a closer look at what I did after I walked away from it for a while. I'm getting a series little strait lines instead of a smooth flowing line. This is on sand cast brass if it matters. It'll be okay for the application, I'm going to touch it up with a scraper but I'd like to correct myself. The next step is 1117 steel, harder to cover mistake on and I don't want to continue bad habbits.

 

[KCSteve]

Hey!

I think I may actually be able to help on this one!

I'm getting a series little strait lines instead of a smooth flowing line.

As it happens I'm reading my copy of "The Art of Engraving" by Mr. James B. Meek and on page 128 he shows an example of a scroll cut with three different techniques.

In figure 3a are shown three scrolls magnified three times. The same tool was used cutting all three scrolls and the same hammer was used ons crolls 1 and 2. <snip> This illustration shows graphically the realtionship that the power of the stroke and the strokes per minute have to the character of the resulting cut. In scroll number 1, the blows were relatively heavey and the back-stroke quite long. There were about sixty strokes used in cutting this scroll and each stroke is readily distinguishable under magnification.

On page 130 he shows the better technique. Basically you pinch the hammer between your thumb and forefinger, let your middle finger go around the front of the handle, and put your ring and little fingers behind it. You use your middle finger to just sort of 'twitch' the hammer in a very fast, very light stroke. The closer to the head you hold the hammer the lighter the stroke. It almost lets you get the sort of short, fast stroke a pneumatic handpiece does.

I'm sure some of the real engravers will be along to explain what I just quoted from what I read - you know, the guys who've actually done this.

 

[sam]

One thing to keep in mind is that in a tight curve, the rotational speed of the vise increases, or in the case of hammer & chisel, the speed of the chisel (and your body) increases. Engravers with less experience will likely experience more difficulty with tight curves as opposed to larger arc where the tool and/or body doesn't move as quickly. You will overcome this with practice, but at the same time, I highly recommend keeping heels very short. / ~Sam

 

[lesholmes]

I'm not an experienced artist like my teachers (Scott, Lee, and Sam), and I use GRS equipment, but I have found that increasing the angle of the heel (while keeping them as short as I was taught) allows the graver to be held more vertically while cutting the curve; this keeps the side of the graver away from the side of the cut. I have used as high as 30 degrees with success. (That high a heel angle will slow the cutting speed of a air tool so I expect you will find a similar effect with a hammer.) -- Lester

 

[Swede]

The length of the graver should have little influence on the smoothness of the cut; it's all in the heel, and in any relief you have ground in the graver. Have you tried the ultra-small heels yet? I'm talking a heel so small that you can BARELY see it without magnification. That may be pushing it, and obviously you'll want to test on scrap, but it doesn't take much heel grind at all to function as it should. When I add a heel to a graver, it's usually no more than about 5 swipes with an unpowered 1200 grit diamond wheel, turned by hand through about a 10 degree arc. Not much at all.

Relieving the point is another way to prevent gall and rub when cutting sharp radii. Steve Lindsay developed a grind that can help, commonly called the Lindsay point. Essentially, much of the graver metal is removed aft of the heel with two facets. It looks complicated, but once you've done a couple, it's a snap, and really makes a difference, IMO.

 

[FL-Flinter]

Thanks to everyone, especially Swede for the link, I'll have to read it over completely later and I will definitely try all the suggestions received. All the assistance is very much appreciated!
Mark

 

[Ray Cover]

A very short heel is important. I keep mine as short as possible if I am not cutting deep my heel may only be a few thousands long.

Another thing that may be plaguing you is cutting form, especially as a beginner. IT is very important to keep the graver perpendicular to the center of rotation when cutting any arch. It is very easy to let the graver drift out of this perpendicular alignment once the arch becomes small and tight.

Ray

 

[FL-Flinter]

Ray, I did catch myself doing just that. I couldn't resist the temptation so I tried my hand at this game again. Sorry for the poor quality pic, I haven't quite figured out the trick to keep them from washing out from the flash with the digital cam. Sorry for the low quality graving work too and don't ask what happened to the nose ... the "buck" ended up looking more like Rudolf.... it looked better in pencil before I started cutting! I don't like the eye either.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Flinter

Don't be so hard on yourself. You are learning to do a very difficult thing that takes a lot of time and practice and sheer hard work.

Will you ever be really, really good at it?...............who knows? You don't, I don't, nor does anyone else. Time will tell!!!

The most important thing is that you are doing it and enjoying it!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nothing else matters.

One tip I can give you is to perhaps for a while work on flat practice plates till you are more familiar with your cuts and tools.


Cheers
Andrew

 

[FL-Flinter]

Andrew, Thanks for the compliments but really, it's ugly and I know it but it works for this application.

I know I won't ever even come close to the work I've seen on this forum, I no longer have the physical ability needed for the fine control that is required for this work. Nonetheless, I know I can do a whole lot better than what you've seen in these two pieces but these were done from a cold start. My practice session was all of two minutes at the most just to kinda get the feel for cutting lines and I jumped right in.

When I started welding, everyone said vertical up and overhead were the two hardest positions to weld in. I started with 1/8" open root V-up. I buggered up couple plates, got some tips and feedback from a pro who looked over my shoulder for about 20 minutes and that was the extent of my formal training. For the last 22 years I've hated having to weld in any position other than V-up or OH.

I would have liked to get more practice time in but I needed to get this rifle done so I figured, what the heck, have at it. If I had really buggered it up, I always had the out of hitting it with the belt sander and making it look it never happened. LOL

I've been on the "learn as I go" plan my whole life, graving will be yet another adventure added to my list. Please don't take my comments the wrong way, I'm always hard on myself, it's my way of continuously pushing myself to do better the next time ... and, I'm always up for a good laugh even if it's at my expense! LOL It took me a long time to figure out all the the tricks I know for welding and working on heavy equipment, every one of them learned as I went along. One thing I learned a long time ago, even though I jump into things with both feet, I don't hesitate to ask questions because sometimes the right answers can come from the least expected source. You'll be hearing a lot from me and I sincerely appreciate all the help that is offered here.

Thanks,
Mark