Federal Firearms License discussion

[Ray Cover]

When Holly and I moved it took us almost two years of looking to find a house that was close enough to the school she teaches at and where I was allowed to have a business. You also have to be careful of subdivision rules we ran into several that did not allow any kind of home business.

Ray

 

[Christopher Malouf]

Do all gun engravers need a FFL license?
If you are only doing engraving on parts of a gun do you need the FFL?
Any time you touch a gun do you need a FFL?

Hi Shonn,

This comes straight from an ATF agent. I'm still not sure if it's accurate though and I welcome rebuttal, corrections etc etc..... A licensed gunsmith can completely disassemble the firearm and give the parts back to the owner. The owner can then bring you the numbered piece as long as it is in a non-working condition and you do not have enough parts to make it work. As far as mailing a numbered longarm part....not sure, a numbered handgun part ...definitely not sure. As for the longarm part, it can be shipped interstate from a licensed gunsmith so long as all of the other parts from that same firearm remain in his safe.

As Mr. Pilkguns has said this is "bogus" ... I followed up with a call to the ATF and you can do this "once in a blue moon".



I read your other post about zoning....hope this adds some optimism to your situation.....

I don't do enough firearms to even consider getting a license at this point and I think it's best to find a local gunsmith or gunmaker that already has a license that you can work with anyway. I found a local guy here that has invited me to work in his shop. I plan on having some tools in his shop to work on the numbered parts there and the majority of the time I can work on non-numbered parts, jewelry and motorcycle parts here at home. Working with an established gunsmith works to the advantage of both parties. You benefit each other's businesses and you can meet customers at the shop rather than have customers at your home. Customers also get the comfort of knowing that they have a one-stop-shopping solution for every aspect of gun work. They come into the shop for one thing or another, the next thing you know they are dropping all sorts of stuff off because they see your work hanging on the wall. We had one customer that came in for an action tuning....now he's interested in having a rifle built and engraved.

Personally, I'm not interested in learning gunsmithing ...assembly and disassembly etc.. I just want to focus on engraving. On the other hand, the gunmaker I work with isn't interested in picking up a chisel either. He wants to focus on machining and stockmaking. Having a local guy that's licensed that you can work with sure saves a lot of headache and you don't break any rules. Having both your combined knowledge and experience in one shop is priceless.

It's good to hedge your bets and engrave all sorts of stuff anyway.

Cheers,

Chris

 

[Dave London]

Shonn
You can ask for a variance, might be a fee for this. Also in the variance application state that you are not selling guns and will not have any customers coming to the home. That UPS Fedex etc will pick up and deliver.
You can take this up the chain of command all the way to court if the lower authorities deny your application. Your call but most places will grant a variance if you are not selling firearms. Also mention that you are an artist and provide some photos Good Luck Dave

 

[pilkguns]

Hi Shonn,

This comes straight from an ATF agent. I'm still not sure if it's accurate though and I welcome rebuttal, corrections etc etc..... A licensed gunsmith can completely disassemble the firearm and give the parts back to the owner. The owner can then bring you the numbered piece as long as it is in a non-working condition and you do not have enough parts to make it work. As far as mailing a numbered longarm part....not sure, a numbered handgun part ...definitely not sure. As for the longarm part, it can be shipped interstate from a licensed gunsmith so long as all of the other parts from that same firearm remain in his safe.

I've even had two customers call me and tell me this but I haven't really been inclined to test it out. Especially if it means shipping any numbered part through the mail.

this all bogus. The agent has not read or does not understand the regs. The ONLY part considered a firearm is the reciever. (If you do not what this means, look it up. If you don't have time to look it up, then you don't need to be doing gunwork. PERIOD.)The reciever is the only part required under Federal law to have a serial number on post 1968 firearms. Some manufacturers put serial numbers on various other parts of the gun. The US goverment does'nt care. FYI, Germany has a similar requirement but it is the barrel that must be serial numbered. Frames made for in Germany sales only have a serial number ONLY on the barrel. These guns are not legal to import into this country (the US) because the serial number is in the wrong place. Trust me, I have an Type 08 Importers license
http://www.pilkguns.com/
and deal with this on a regular basis. As I stated above in the earlier post, if you keep the any part of gun other than the receiver, the Feds do not care. Some states may have different rules (like CA, CT, MA or NY as the likely culprits) . If you keep a reciever in your possession for a commercial purpose for more than 24 hours, then by the letter of the law, you need a FFL for the premises where the firearm/reciever is kept. Your gunsmith buddy having it logged into his FFL 100 yards down the road even is not good enough. You are in violation of the law. The flip side of the coin is, if you are only doing a few guns, and no shipping is going on, then most likely nobody is going to know, and if they do know, no one is going to care, because you are only working on customer supplied guns, not introducing new guns into the commerce stream. But the reality is you are violating the law, if someone wants to come after you for another reason, made up or not, all of sudden you can have felony charges against you.

Now the gunsmithing thing is good, I highly encourage any engraver doing guns to have a symbiotic relationship with a qualified local gunsmith. There are a number of things a gunsmith can do that you may not can do for yourself or want to do. These can include dissaembly, repairs, metal preparation, refinishing and even sending you customers. But do not expect him to provide you an FFL umbrella unless you are in fact working under his roof in his licensed premises.

Shipping is a whole nother topic. A customer can send and recieve a firearm that is his already from a FFL via UPS or Fed Ex if it is a repair (such as engraving would fall under). A customer cannot use the US Mail to send any firearm. Firearms may be sent through the Post Office FFL to FFL via Registered Mail only (expensive, must have signature everytime it changes hands, even among mail employees)

Customers or FFL holders alike when sending handguns only through UPS or Fed Ex, are required by UPS and Fed Ex in house requirements (not goverment) that said handguns must be sent overnight, whearas longarms are allowed to be sent regular ground. Airguns, which I deal a lot in too, have no federal regulations whatsoever (again some states do) but most employees of Post Office, Fed Ex, UPS, TSA, , airlines etc will insist that they be treated just like a firearm, so expect it.

Thus endeth the epistle.

 

[monk]

ffl requirement

mine was issued reluctantly. i refused to maintain "regular" hours. but i attached a rider onto my application that the ffl was strictly for the purpose of shipping, receiving, and harboring firearms and such parts to embellish them. i also signed off not to sell guns, ammunition, gunpowder, or to conduct any activity other than to sell my engraving work. at least then, they allowed me to do this without set operating hours.this can vary , you have to check this out. your local gundealer might get you on the right track. i don't know how busy the bureau is these days.

 

[Ray Cover]

This regular business hour thing was not a problem for me . I put that I am open for business from 9-5 on mine. Which I am usually I work more hours a day than that. I don't advertise locally in fact the only locals who even know i am here are Law enforcement and a few very close friends who know I have a longer backlog than anyone it willing to wait.

Yes I am open 9-5 mon -fri. Have I ever had a local customer waltz in the door in the past 10 years? .....not a single one.

The ATF wants to know that you are running a legitimate business and that you are not getting the FFL just to get dealers cost on guns for yourself and friends. Legitimate businesses have business hours. I do, you do, we all do. Legitimate business hours means this is the time of day that you are running your business, the time of day that an agent can call on the phone and reach you there. It does not necessarily mean that you have a billboard on the highway and a welcome mat in front of the door.

Be up front with them. Tell them you won't have a steady flow of people coming in the door because you are an engraver and you may spend weeks at a time on ONE project and most of your customer are collectors from out of state. You should not have any trouble getting an FFL as long as you can show that you are running a legitimate business (even if it is a very exclusive business) in which you are working on a regular basis. That does not mean that you have to be catering to a local walk in public.


Ray

 

[Tira]

My regular business hours per the ATF are 9-12 on Monday. They were happy with that and it allows me to have a very flexible schedule.

 

[rhenrichs]

I've had a FFL for over 40 years and have alway's operated out of my home in a room designed as a shop. Just got my renewal to 2010 yesterday. I show my business hours to be 8AM-5PM 5 days a week by appointment only. Been inspected twice over the duration that I've had a FFL. The last inspection that I had was this year by a new Agent and he needed the caliber put on the barrel of a custom rifle he was building and he wanted to see if I could do it for him. I did and his parting words were "you won't be seeing much of us guy's again unless we need something engraved".

Roger

 

[dclevinger]

Scott, you're right about the serial numbered part being considered a firearm. Anyone getting an FFL should take the time to sit down and read (and understand) the regulations that come with your packet.

Ray, that's a very good point as well. I attached a note to my application stating that I would have regular business hours but because of the nature of my business, I would not be open to the public and only accept walk ins with an appointment.

Also, be aware of school zones. I'm in one so I have to meet the client at his vehicle and carry the firearm, in a locked case, into my house. Once it's finished, I have to take it out the exact same way. I do it to protect the client just in case a police officer happens to pass by and decides to make an issue of it.

David