Question: how making a disign for a curved surface

Arnaud Van Tilburgh

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For the first time I want to make a design for a shape that is not flat, not even only curved.
Making a photo of the object does not work, because of the perspective the lens registers.
For flat objects, the scanner works to trace the contours after that, not for a pistol.
I have a copy of John B. that I thought would be the right shape, but it is not.
Searching in the older treads, I could not find the answer how to do it precisely.

I have scanned the pistol, and sure it than is the right size without perspective. But as the pistol has a thickness, not all of it is sharp, so that image don’t work to trace the contours.

Some parts that are only curved to one side, I can measure them and design them as a flat surface. Curved in two directions and having curved borders, I don’t know how to design a flat version of it.

The only way I can think of for the most complicated surfaces, is to put a thin piece of paper around it, and burnish it with my fingernails, then trace it with a pencil.
But even sphere shape probably won’t be precisely enough.

So the only way I can think of to do it precisely, is to draw directly on the object.

My question: is there a way to transfer the shapes of this pistol precisely so I can make a design ready to be transferred ? Or must I first make the contours of the shape approximately precisely and redraw it under the microscope on the pistol itself.

So based on John’s scanned smokeprints?, I try to make a proper design I can use to engrave this old browning 1910 cal.7.65 with my interpretation of the original “renaissanceâ€￾ design.

arno


The FN Browning 1910 I have from my father who got it from his father



Something like this I would like to work out my way.



I tried to scan it, but not sharp enough on all borders



This is what I try to realise


This is what I have but I don't know if the curved lines are precisely enough.
 

canadian

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Arnaud,

If you tape a piece of paper over the pistol parts and trace it with a pencil you will get the exact dimensions of the parts. Then fill in with your design.
That is the simplest way I can think about it.

Best,

Boris
 
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Marrinan

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Your thumbnail method or a pencil lead rubbed over the edge is correct. you have the right idea-the "layed out" version is just several rubbing put together to show the entire gun. it was not done as a single effort. It will require you to warp the slide seperatly form the frame the various sections of the frame are also done seperatly.-Fred
 

Andrew Biggs

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You'll also find, depending on the curavture of the surface, that no matter how accurate your rubbings, you still will have to hand draw in some areas and adjust them slightly.

Cheers
Andrew
 

ARTINHAND

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one i saw was to use an ink pad and dab it on the surface, then cover it in scotch tape. peel the tape off and you have your pattern. trate it, copy it, enlarge it, or whatever you need.
 

Roger Bleile

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Arnaud,

Now you are beginning to learn what separates gun engravers from all of the others who can mostly work on flat surfaces. This fits in with the saying "if you can engrave a gun you can engrave anything."

That said, I will give you two things. First, many of the worlds engravers draw their designs directly on the gun. This is not only for simple scroll patterns but applies to some very sophisticated work as well.

Keep in mind, however that those who design directly on the gun do not try to draw in every detail but rather do all of the detail work with the graver. This is because experience in drawing on paper has locked the concepts of shading and detail into their brains. Many of the top gun engravers I have spoken with draw on the gun because they feel that all of this transferring business wastes too much time. I'm not affirming that this is the best way but noting that it is commonly done. FWIW, I draw on the work piece when doing ornamentation only but use transfers for scenes and figures.

Now for a more direct answer to your question. Disassemble the gun. Using a candle or oil lamp, deposit smoke onto the gun one section at a time. Using a tissue, remove any soot from adjacent sections. Then carefully, using clear vinyl or bookbinding tape, lift the smoke from the section you have smoked. You probably will need to hold each piece in your vise as you do this unless you have 3 hands.

Carefully place the tape onto a sheet of white paper. Scan the sheet into your PC then create a negative image in your Photoshop. You will then have the exact outline of the part that you can draw on.

OK, once you have your final drawing you can get into whatever transfer process has been written about on this forum ad infinitum. I, however use an old school method to get the design on the work piece. I do the design on high quality tracing paper in reverse with a soft pencil then tape the paper to the part (which has been coated with my own concoction of white paint) then burnish the paper which leaves the pencil lines on the work piece. Using a very sharp 5H pencil I make any refinements to the deign then start cutting. Again my transfer is only the basics of the design. The details are added with the graver.

I hope this helps you and others struggling with this issue but like Andrew said above, no matter what you do you will have to do some drawing directly on the gun.

Roger
 

Bunic

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Thanks to all of you who ask the developmental questions and those who share their answers from different, and experienced, backgrounds! I need both!!

Mike
 

Arnaud Van Tilburgh

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Thank you all for your advises, I will try the smoke method Roger described.
I understand the pistol has to be divided into different areas and then put back together
I will show you my progress once I'm done.

arnaud
 

John B.

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I think you have received all the answers you need, Arno.
And best of luck with this fine piece of family history.
I bet it could tell a few tales of being hidden away during the Nazi occupation of WW2.
If discovered, someone could have paid with their life for having it.
As others have said some adjustments of the pattern will have to be done by hand. These guns were originally finish ground by hand and subsequent grindings, sandings and re-finishing make the various panels slightly different sizes.
 

Arnaud Van Tilburgh

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I think you have received all the answers you need, Arno.
And best of luck with this fine piece of family history.
I bet it could tell a few tales of being hidden away during the Nazi occupation of WW2.


Yes John I have all the answers I need, and I already had the answers in Ron Smith's book and James Meek, just forgot to search there fore the answer. :(

Here is my first inverted smoke print done on my pocket knife

The pistol indeed tells a story, I got it from my father as my grandfather already died before I was born.
"During WW2 all private firearms where collected by the Germans, and my grandfather did not dare to hide this pistol as he had a wife and 5 children. So he gave in the Browning, but only after he had unscrewed the handles and removed the pin, that way they can't use it properly he said"
After the war he got it back and assembled the the browning.

arnaud
 

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John B.

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Arnaud,
It’s a near miracle that in all the chaos of WW2 the Nazi records remained intact and the pistol was returned to its rightful owners.
England was supposed to have been on the winning side of things but my parents were never compensated for their war losses by the British government.
 

Roger Bleile

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Arnaud,

Here is a full set of photos of a Browning similar to yours for your reference.

Roger
 

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Arnaud Van Tilburgh

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Roger, thank you for the picture, indeed this one is the most similar I ever saw on the Internet. It is especialy the top of the pistol that is concave compared to other model 1910
Is this one you engraved?

arnaud
 

Roger Bleile

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Roger, thank you for the picture, indeed this one is the most similar I ever saw on the Internet. It is especialy the top of the pistol that is concave compared to other model 1910
Is this one you engraved?

arnaud

Arnaud,

I think you meant to say convex rather than concave above.

I did not engrave the gun pictured. It was engraved at the factory and is known as a Renaissance pattern.

Here is another picture of the top of the slide of a similar gun. This one has adjustable target sights but is engraved the same as the ones with standard sights other than where the scroll works around the sight.

Roger
 

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Arnaud Van Tilburgh

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Thank you Roger for the convex rather than concave lesson. Since I visit this Café I also learned a lot new English words, but my vocabulary remains poor.

The top side of the pistol is different than mine as it does not have the convex line on top.
For my design however it will help.

arnaud
 

Roger Bleile

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Arnaud,

I am the one in error about the correct wording. I just remembered that the guns with standard sights have a sort of "gutter" (gouttière) down the center of the slide and this part is indeed concave. It is called a "sight channel." The rest of the top of the slide is convex like the one with target sights.

If you look at the first picture on the left in post #14 you can barely see the sight channel in the top of the slide. I'm sorry but I don't have a picture of an engraved Browning that shows the pattern around the sight channel. The smoke print from 1971 shows a gun with raised sights as well.

Roger
 
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DKanger

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Thank you Roger for the convex rather than concave lesson.
Arnaud,
The easiest way to remember the difference is that a "cave" is a hole in the ground. Thus a depression is concave.

Dave
 
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