is this hand engraving

[Tom Curran]

When I use a GraverMach, is this hand engraving? I think it is, but I am not entirely sure. I am off to a show this weekend, and realize that I want to remove all doubt from my mind when I talk with my visitors.

Thanks, Tom

by the way, this art came from a 15th Century pottery shard, depicting a portuguese ship.

 

[Sam]

Tom: The graver itself hasn't changed much since its inception. The method of moving the graver through the metal has, and when using pneumatic equipment the graver is still guided completely freehand, which indeed qualifies as hand engraving.

 

[FANCYGUN]

Hi tOM
Heading up to the Albany show?
I have been telling people the same thing Sam has just said.
It is hand engraving, the tool is exactly the same, the only thing different is the method of propelling it into the metal.

I heard from friends back there you had a decent amount of snow yesterday
Marty

 

[Eddi]

I know how you feel. The first time I used my Gravermax I felt like I was cheeting. It was so easy, I thought I needet to lower the price for my work. But I quickly got over that.

Eddi

 

[Sam]

Eddi: Your comment reminded me of a guy who was watching my demonstrations at a trade show a couple of years ago. After I'd completed a demo, he angrily remarked "That's cheating!" referring to using a GraverMach. I smiled and said "Thank you! I'm certainly not above cheating when it comes to finding a way to do something better and faster and with more control!" He turned and walked away. Oh well.

 

[Unkl Ian]

You decide what and where to engrave,the machine only helps supply the muscle.
So it is "done by hand" since the tools are not programed to produce the same design over and over.

The difference is what David Pye refers to as "workmanship of risk vs workmanship of certainty".
Pye wrote an interesting book,Nature & Art of Workmanship.
Kind of dry reading,but some interesting ideas.

Hand engraving,even with power tools,falls under workmanship of risk.The finished result is not guaranteed.
Computerized "engraving" is workmanship of certainty.You know for sure what the finished result will be.


If it was "cheating",then the average spectator could produce the exact same results,over and over.
The element of skill and experience would be removed.Results would be guaranteed.

 

[Tom Curran]

Thanks for the thoughts, folks. It's just different than hammer and chisel. If I did the design above with hammer and chisel it would look quite different, same with push engraving. Each school of engraving leaves certain clues as to the method used.

I'm glad to know I'm hand engraving. Machine cut would be pantograph or CNC.

Marty, we have a little snow, not much, maybe 6" in town, a little more in the hills. Had a big melt last week, big freeze this week.

 

[monk]

cheating: michaelangelo didn't have pneumatic jackhammers. but not too many people go so far to say he had young assistants that did a lot of the roughout rock bashing. if he had jackhammers, who in their right minds think he would not have, at least in part, relied on them. i do stone sculpture now and then. go look in a catalog. you got a choice just like we engravers, strictly old way, or strictly new way. which way do you want to earn your paycheck ? hell yes, i cheat !

 

[monk]

hay don't bet your farm on the computer way either ! the result isn't always guaranteed. it is not always workmanship of certainty if the bleepin computer decides halfway thru a design, to just simply begin workin a design you did say a couple weeks ago ! ask me how i know about that.

 

[mtgraver]

Well guys I'm envious of the use of pneumatics, it's just not affordable for me at this time. My take on the subject is trying to recreate the air of antiquity in my work. It depends on the design as to how well it's executed. Old longrifles can be rather crude but others were executed with perfection. The detail of the cuts show the hammer method versus push. But my choice of creation is in the 18th century modus of operandi. And heck yeah if I could I'd have a cheatin machine....maybe next Christmas
Mark

 

[Lee]

I deal with a lot of gun guys and it's pretty easy to say something like "I understand I bet you won't buy any guns where a cnc machine was used. Only hand filed hmmmmmmmm" I like to think of pneumatics as hand push with power assist so I can push a bit deeper.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

I've given a couple of demonstrations using a GraverMach/Max and one demo with Airtact and each time there's always someone who come's up and says "That's cheating!" I smile and politely ask them in exactly what way is it cheating? Back comes the same old answer "Well, you're using a machine aren't you!" So, I place the graver on the bench and hit the pedal with full air and talk to the buzzing handle saying "Go on, engrave that piece of metal." Of course nothing happens; it's even better with Airtact because nothing at all happens, not even the buzzing handle. 99% of the time they admit defeat, especially when I go on to explain exactly how it works and that all that's happening is that the handle contains an internal hammer which drives the graver just like a refined hammer and chisel. So yes, even using 'air-assistance' qualifies as hand engraving because all it does is help propel the graver through whatever medium is being embellished.

Just one final thought, glass engravers and cameo makers have used machines for well over a century. The glass engraver who uses a copper wheel never gets accused of cheating when a piece of crystal is described as hand engraved. This is where it is important to educate the public as to what we do and the tools we use, in my view.

 

[Gator]

With the general public, you can usually show them the different tools and explain the differences enough to bring them around to an understanding of why it is often better to use the power tools.

The hard resistance to the term “Hand Engraving†mostly comes from Engraver’s that do not use power assist tools to engrave. For some of these engraver’s, this is a very sore subject.

I have a friend that engraves without any power assist and he was always razing me about it. I pointed out that he uses a grinder for some operations like background removal and polishing, and that wasn’t used in the “old days†either.

That got him calmed down enough to talk about it.

We butted heads about this for some time.
I wasn’t going to give up the term “Hand Engraving†for all the reasons that have been mentioned in the posts here. He wasn’t prepared to say that engraving with power tools is really the classic form of “Hand Engravingâ€.

What we decided to do between us was to compromise, I now call what I do “Modern Hand Engravingâ€, and he uses the term “Classic Hand Engravingâ€.

It works out pretty good, now I get to razz him about the polishing tools he uses.
I keep saying to him, “If you were really doing Classic Hand Engraving, shouldn’t you be using sticks and tree bark to polish that metal?†He just ducks his head and mumbles something I can’t print here, as he keeps working.

It’s true that both methods aren’t really the same thing, but it is also true that they both are “hand engravingâ€.

I also use push gravers along with chasing hammers and chisels for every engraving I do. He uses grinders and polishers with his jobs.

This is how 2 friends worked out this problem, I’m not saying it is going to work for everyone.
Gator

 

[FANCYGUN]

We could just call it............"Classic Hammer and Chisel in a Unibody Frame"

 

[Sam]

The whole argument of hand vs. power engraving fascinates me. Who could doubt that Michelangelo - who was on the cutting edge of Renaissance technology - would have used an air hammer, airbrush, or other tool that could have made his work easier, faster, and perhaps better? Honestly, I believe the old arguments of hand vs. power engraving are finally dying out. I really don't hear as much as I used to. It's very difficult to claim one is superior to another when there's a great body of masterworks done by both methods. / ~Sam

 

[JJ Roberts]

Gentlemen..When doing gun shows I only take the traditional engraving tools to do a demonstration with...doing this I avoid all the dumb comments that I might get. The only time I discuss power assist is with potential students at the shows. I have given out brochures of GRS, NGraver Co., & the Lindsay tools, also talk about the traditional method..this gives the potential student the different options and let them decide in which direction they want to go, I am also asked about the art of engraving..comments like this must be a lost art, and I simply say that there are many fine engravers around the country and in the world. I hand out copies of the FEGA newsletter and applications of the Guild. I keep a 3 ring binder with FEGA newsletters to show people some of the talent that is out there. That is my 2 cents worth. Keep up the good work.

Yours truly,
JJ Roberts
School of Artistic Engraving
Manassas, VA
http://www.angelfire.com/va2/engraver

 

[joseph engraver]

It is not the tools nor the hand that makes engraving beautiful and appreciated for centuries.It is the brain and spirit behind them.

 

[truehand]

My dad is and old school engraver who was taught in the UK by even OLDER schoolers, heh. He taught me the palm push method back in '92 and, 10 yrs later, at the tender age of 32, I was really feeling the affects of the long days on my back and neck and I never did learn hammer and chisel so steel engraving wasnt on my list of services. I wasnt sure I could continue to support my family, but loved hand engraving too much to stop, so I bought a Lindsay Airgraver and NEVER looked back. I think my income doubled the first year with it!
I believe the debate is sinking like a sunset but when I do find myself explaining my Airgraver to a customer I simply say, "Power is nothing without control"
I never use any engraving machines like CNC or Pantograph in my shop so I'm still comfortable with the name of my company, Truehand Engraving.
that's my story, and I'm stickin with it!
dave

P.S. Joseph, you are an inspiration!!!

 

[Ron Smith]

Guys, I am an "old school" engraver myself and can't bring myself to completely abandon the hand tools, but that is a choice of love and has nothing to do with jelousy. In this day and age, the time that it takes to learn to control the hand tool is just an added burden, both economically and commitment wise. Of course the use of the old tools is a greater sacrifice, but you will be limiting your production capabilities and believe me, you also will almost eliminate the injuries that come from learning to push a palm tool. That is worth consideration too, because when you stick that blade into that knuckle on your hand it Hurts (for a long time). I am proud of the fact that I can use any tool successfully and can do it any way anyone wants, but I still value the benifits of the pneumatic tools. The spirits of envy and jelousy are unclean and cause all kinds of sickness, and those who can recognize those people under their spell aren't the ones injured by it, so don't worry about their problems. But if you want to know the pure joy of the purest form of engraving, you can take up the palm tool and experience that too. That is up to you. Chip away my friends, and rejoice in the beauty of your creations. That is what it is about! the same spirit that drives me drives you. That search for grace is inspirational, uplifting, and it is infectuous, and there is no greater quest for the human soul..............other than wisdom, but then that is wisdom, and your greatest achievement as a human..........Carry on! Ron S

 

[Leonardo]

Please, excuse me for my intrusion among this highly qualified opinions, but I would like to give you a point of view of a computer professional and cnc machinery user and developer.
Any tool is useless without a person controlling it, even a computer! The computer can do only the things that you want will be doing by it. Any cnc machine is connected to a computer, so it is applicable to this machines too.
But in the case of the air assisted gravers there are no computer at all! You can thing that you have a very little friend, a gnome hammering the chisel for you while you are doing the cuts.
I can not understand what kind of narrow minded people can doubt about the authenticity of your works, and this is only talking about the workmanship, not to mention anything about the art, design, etc., etc.

By the way… Ron, I have ordered your book “Drawing & understanding scroll designs”.

Kind regards.