John B gravers without solder

[Ray Cover]

WHen Paul Hamler was at my school this past week he had these little gravers he made up. They were along the same lines as the ones John had made except Paul had found parts that fit together so well theye did not need to be soldered.

Here is the info sent me on them.

These are cobalt drills with 2 mm shanks, install the drill working end into the 3/32 tubing and press in .175 The sides of the square tubing will buldge out slightly when pressed into the tubing,when sharpening leave this buldged area out of the vee jaw of the sharpening fixture for best registration. The amazing thing about this is the cobalt drills are very duriable and cut great and can be made in minutes without bnrazing or soldering the cobalt drill to the brass tubing. We used several of these in Ray's engraving class last week with great success.
Paul

The things worked great and held up impressively well.

 

[pilkguns]

I have made these for years without soldering, just a dab of expoxy. I would be su****ious that they would no hold forever with twisting or something, but I guess as light a cut as you would be making there would be little chance of that. never thought about it.

I also use mine for undercutting, stippling, shaping and whatever else I think of as needed. and the dab of epoxy is easy insurance.. when the tip is wore out or broke off, its just matter of heating the the tip of it with propane torch and zoom it goes off into the far recesses of the shop. Kindof cool. mini artillery, I make a game out trying to hit a specific target with it, but don't do it often enough to have any feel for the trajectory. Course various epoxies formulations and heat combination may affect the power of the propellant as well.

 

[Ron Smith]

Hey Scott, I guess your never gonna grow up,..........but then I probably am not either. Sounds like fun! Have you tried moving targets yet?
Ron S

 

[jlseymour]

Paul's Graver Idea

What a Great Idea,
I was lucky enought to be at Ray's class last week and meet Paul...
Paul has come up with a great idea. I engraved with GRS and Lindsley's tool and the graver from the cobalt drills held up without a point break and stayed sharpe all week in steel and brass...
I think Ya'll will see this Idea at Scott's, You will be impressed...
Ray has a very informative school and shares with us any information that makes us better engravers...

Thanks Ray!!!

JL Seymour

 

[Ray Cover]

Yoru very welcome Jerry,

We had a great crew last week. It was a lot of fun. After that class sitting here by myself this week really is a let down.... makes me look forward to Scott's get together to get to spend time with more fun people.

Ray

 

[pilkguns]

maybe we will have a mini-artillery contest to see who can launch the little critters the farthest.

 

[John B.]

Hi Ray, Scott and Paul.
I posted a reply to this on Steve Lindsay's forum more fully. Don't know how to link it, sorry.
Bottom line...... not a matter of NIH.....I think it can be done a LOT better than the way Paul proposes.
I can solder a batch of 6 gravers in less time than it takes to type this.
Why try to swedge them in? Hard to keep them straight without Pauls expertise.
It also would tend to weaken the brass tube where the cobalt enters, allowing for flex and bending.
If they are not straight they won't index for sharpening and there goes the ball game.
But if you don't want to solder them you can use JB Weld or other thick epoxy.
They work this way but I much prefer the better security of soft solder and full length cobalt.
When the graver is worn down touch it with the flame and pull it out with pliers.
A little flux on the end of a new piece of cobalt and a moment of flame and you're good to go again.
The used brass tube is already tinned inside and mostly does not need more solder.
You might want to do a search on Sam's Members Tips also.
There are revisions to making this type of graver there.
Just my thoughts. John B.

 

[jlseymour]

You Should See

You don't have a clue, wait and see, I used them for a week and so for I may never use a SQ unless I want to make a flat or anything I can't use a 96,115,120... Go to Steve's Forum and read more of what I have to say...
JL Seymour

 

[John B.]

You don't have a clue, wait and see, I used them for a week and so for I may never use a SQ unless I want to make a flat or anything I can't use a 96,115,120... Go to Steve's Forum and read more of what I have to say...
JL Seymour

Hi JLSeymour.

Sorry we don't have a clue. Too bad.
I'm sure one week of using these gravers at school made you an expert.
I read your piece on SL forum and out of respect for Sam's happy Cafe I will refrain from saying any more about it here.
Here people use respect and courtesy.

John B.

 

[Mike Cirelli]

John have you ever tried Tix solder or putting the end that will be sharpened in water then hard solder or braze the other end to the brass. I haven't had a chance to make any yet so I don't know. I'm just asking.
Mike

 

[Tira]

Respect and courtesy - thanks to all who employ these traits on the cafe.

The debate on this topic has seemed to heat up today both at the cafe and also on the Lindsay forum. Everyone is entitled to his opinion about making tools, but opinions are just that - opinions. Let's keep it respectful and without insults.

Thanks again for all who debate and disagree as gentlemen.

 

[sam]

You don't have a clue, wait and see, I used them for a week and so for I may never use a SQ unless I want to make a flat or anything I can't use a 96,115,120... Go to Steve's Forum and read more of what I have to say...
JL Seymour

I tried to read your post on Lindsay's forum, but it seems the entire city of Emporia, Kansas is banned from accessing it. I guess it'll have to wait until I'm home next week. I'm not entirely clear on what this is about, but I can tell you that John B. is a friend of mine and the Cafe's as well, and he's held in very high regard by all.

~Sam

 

[jlseymour]

John B and Cafe members,
I'm sorry if I sounded disrespectable or out of place, I didn't mean too...
I've learned alot from all of the engravers and everyone who participates in the Cafe...
I'm more a jeweller than an engraver and work at it every day, so I'll say again I'm sorry...
JL Seymour

 

[Peter E]

After reading the posts about making these gravers and being a tool nut, I picked up some 3/32" square brass tubing and will be looking for some 1/16" drills.

I was able to find 6" aircraft drills at Enco but don't see 12" as John B. had mentioned.

I was also wondering how drill rod would be? I haven't used it before and it comes in a few varieties such as air, oil or water hardened, A-2, O-1 or W-1.

Any suggestions will be appreciated.

Thanks,
Peter

 

[FANCYGUN]

I can't for the life of me figure out why the city of Emporia is blocked out and banned from accessing the Lindsay site. It makes no sense and is a little infantile. What is Emporia or more specifically GRS able to read that will destroy military secrets of Steve's. Perhaps one of his close friends or participants can enlighten us on this. After all it is supposed to be a public forum of his and if I remember correctly,Ray Cover did invite all to participate on his forum in his behalf a while back. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Swede]

A word of warning: If you are looking for small HSS or cobalt cutting tools to adapt, be aware that in many cases, the shanks of the drills or cutters are often annealed, or tempered differently from the cutting portion. This is done intentionally to allow drill chucks, etc to get a better grip on the drill shank. You can investigate this pretty easily... find a scrap high-speed drill bit, and apply a file alternately to the shank end, and the cutting end. Often the cutting end is squeaky hard, as you'd expect, but the shank end is soft.

What this means is that if you adapt a small tool to some brass square tubing, grind off all the cutting end, and then sharpen or use the shank end for engraving, it may be too soft to work well.

This isn't a 100% hard and fast rule, but it's pretty common. This does NOT apply to solid carbide tooling, which is consistent from shank to tip.

 

[Ray Cover]

We have all been through this before. Steve's forum IS NOT a public forum it is a business forum with the stated purpose of providing tech support and promotion of his tools. It says so in his forum rules.

Although you all are welcome to come over and participate it that DOES NOT make it a public forum. It makes you invited guest. There is a difference. Steve's forum is a tool for his business to help his tool users and to market his product.

Please understand that. It is not nor has it ever been anything but that. Just because the folks from this forum have an invitation to participate over there it does not mean that Glendo Corp does.

Call it infantile if you want but..... You would not want the engravers on here going through your file cabinet to get direct contact info of your best customers. You also would not want me haning around your table at the FEGA show (while you were interacting with customers) trying to take those custoemrs for myself. I may want your customers, but I have no right to stand in front of your table at the FEGA show and scalp them right in front of you. I need to pay for my own table at the show. I gaurentee that if I did that to any exhibitor at any trade show they would remove me from their tabel area.

Steve's business forum is no different. It is not a public forum and he is not obligated to give his main competition direct access to his customer base.

That is as plain as I know how to explain it. I truely hope everyone understands. The Lindsay forum IS NOT a public forum but rather you all are invited guest.

Ray

 

[FANCYGUN]

Thanks for the clarification Ray

 

[Sandy]

Hi John,
I still have the one you gave me in Reno. I have made several. Mr. Bull would be proud of my soldering. Not to log ago I put a rib on a barrel. Used Polly Choke rib glue. made an 1/8 round steel shank and put a 1/16 inch solid carbide drill in it and glued it in place with the rib glue. Still holding fast. No matter what the butt end is made of the idea is great. John Thanks for sharing your knowledge with the rest of us non-thinkers.

Sandy

Remember "Fear is a strange motivator" The right thing is not always the opposite of the wrong thing.

 

[John B.]

John have you ever tried Tix solder or putting the end that will be sharpened in water then hard solder or braze the other end to the brass. I haven't had a chance to make any yet so I don't know. I'm just asking.
Mike

Mike C.

Tix will work just fine, another great brand of low temp solder, even lower temp than StayBrite.
Only reason I use StayBrite is because I have a good supply in stock and it's reasonably low temp.
Your idea of standing the blade portion in water is a winner for those who want to silver solder them together.
Don't know why I didn't think of it! Thank you very much.
That's the method we use to anneal cartridge case necks when reloading. Great idea.
Take your idea a hair further, Mike.
Drill a small block of wood or alumimum with spaced 1/16" holes and epoxy it to the bottom of a tuna can.
Push the blades into the tubing. Put the end of the blades into the holes and add water to just below the brass.
Flux the end of the tube and drill rod with a flux wet tooth pick and place a tiny cut off piece of silver solder wire and apply the heat to the brass about a quarter inch down from the end.
The heat will draw the solder down into the tube and solder both parts together.
I know you know this Mike, but some folks might not have done much soldering.
I sure hope Tira or Sam (after teaching) will add your idea and link it to the original post in Members Tips.
Thank you for a very constructive idea.
Best regards. John B.