Lindsay Point

[leschowe]

I am still relatively new to engraving and have really been having a problem
tearing up the outside edge of my cuts in tight turns -- like the inside of a spiral.
I haven't had much success solving the problem until I recently tried the "Lindsay Point".
I sharpened a 120V point per Steve Lindsay's instructions on his web site, and was
really impressed with its performance. My torn up edge problem is almost completely
solved and the graver seemed to cut very smoothly.

I did notice that the tip may have a little more tendency to break although I
am not completely sure about this yet.

I was wondering what experiences other people might have had using this point, and,
since nothing is perfect, what some of the downsides of using it might be.

Les Schowe

 

[joe seeley]

The lindsay point does just as steve says it does and works very well, it has been in use for machine tools for many years ( the secondary clearence behind a cutting edge) Steve has taken the time and effort to figure out the exact angles required based on the face angle. If you change the face or the combined angle of your tool point then you must change the yaw angle of the tool. steves very simple sharpening fixture has taken all of the guess work out of sharpening for his point style.

yes his tool point style is the best for a graver that has to cut around a corner.

joe seeley
machinist, gunmaker, engraver

 

[pilkguns]

if you are tearing up your cut in a tight scroll, your heel is too long, pure and simple, whether you are using a traditional graver or the Lindsay point. Neither will work well when improperly sharpened.

 

[Tim Wells]

The tighter the turn, the tinier the heel.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Whilst assisting my father teach fine English scroll at Grand Masters last year, I noticed several students had this problem because of the longer heel that's used in cutting this type of scroll. However, often the problem was nothing whatsoever to do with the heel per say. Rather, when cutting small tight radii the engraver often, quite inadvertently, kicks out the heel of his/her hand and starts to force the cut. Instead of the point of the graver leading naturally, the edge of the face does the cutting first with the point acting as a secondary cut. This can leave the jagged, ragged look to the cut or to what some term 'heel drag' when in fact the heel isn't dragging at all.

If you look closely at some of the fine English scroll guns of the past there is no heel drag and they were all cut with a long, not parallel, heel.

There is no doubt a relief grind helps alleviate heel drag when using a short parallel heel but I would urge anyone who thinks they have got heel drag problems to first double check the position of their cutting hand and to make sure the very point of the graver is the part of the tool doing the cutting.

 

[fegarex]

Ditto to all of the above and what I have found many beginners doing was allowing the angle of attack to "drop". In other words, they are letting the back of the tool to lower and cause a ragged cut in tight spirals. When cutting tight scrolls keep saying to yourself "keep your elbow up". This keeps the back of the tool up and keeps from tearing as well.

 

[Ron Smith]

And to add to what Marcus said or rather to elaborate a bit, another thing to consider is the depth of the cut. If you go into the metal past the lift angle you will drag also, so many times the amateur will be forcing the tool past the depth the graver will cut smoothly. Finesse only comes with practice. You cannot solve it with the point on the tool alone. The 120 degree point is the most durable point due to its bulk providing the face angle is blunt enough to help in its durability, but the geometry which makes the tools cut at its best only gives you the best possible solution without the benifit of experience. So, having said all of that, tool sharpening is important, but experience is critical. The bulkier the point, the less breakage, but again the beginner abuses the point severly because his timing is off. The pneumatic tools help in this regard, because they are relieving themselve with every reciprocation of the point. The hand tool is another matter and you will see this if you have any experience with the hand tool. That is what makes the pneumatic tools beautiful. You get results faster...............Count your blessings and Practice practice practice........Hope this helps you to understand the dynamics of making a cut, and I felt a little deeper understanding of what is going on might help........Ron S

 

[Sam]

A few things to consider about gravers:

• Too large a heel can cause drag, parallel sharpened or not.

• Shorter heels can help to reduce heel drag, but are not guaranteed to eliminate it.

• Just as one style or brand of tennis racquet doesn't work equally well for all players, the graver shape or material that works miraculously for one person will not necessarily work as miraculously for others. My life as a teacher would be a hundred times easier if it did.

• More than the material the graver is made of or the angles used to shape it, graver control is the single most important factor in clean, professional cutting. This comes with practice and experience and can't be purchased or dialed-in on a sharpening fixture.

~Sam

 

[Ron Smith]

To elaborate a little on what has been said, the 120 degree point is the bulkiest point, minimising the breakage problem, providing the rake angle supports that theory and is blunt too, but the beginner is very abusive on the points because his timing is off. That is the beauty of the reciprocating tip of the pneumatic tools. They relieve themselves with every vibration, but the twisting of the tool by the inexperienced engraver puts stress on that point. Geometry knowledge gets you to cutting faster, but they don't give you experience. You will see if you have any experience with the hand or palm tool without power. The dynamics becomes even more critical then, and you cannot make a successful cut with tool geometry alone. Finnesse only comes with practice in either case, even if you have the geometry correct, if you go into the cut deeper than the geometry will allow for a smooth cut, you will still get a ragged edge, so you cannot escape the requirement to practice, practice, practice, and count your blessings, and thank Don Glaser for the pneumatic inventions for the modern engravers. The time required to master the palm tool without power is at least tenfold and probably more. This problem will take care of itself with time. I hope this helps you to understand the dynamics of cutting and what is required........In one word, experience............... You are developing your sense of touch to be able to respond and be sensitive to microscopic movement and motion. That takes time............ Ain't the human body incredible???!!!!...I have been doing this forty plus years and am still amazed by it..............Ron S

 

[leschowe]

Thanks for all of the great advice above, this is really a great forum.

In my case I really do not think the problem is the length of the heel. I am aware
of the heel length issue and have experimented with all lengths of heel. I even used
some of the few remaining hairs on my head to measure the heel length. The one thing
that does help with the heel is increasing the heel angle.

I think that my problem is, as stated very accurately above, that I am to essentially, to
heavy handed and that I am forcing the point around turn. Many times my index finger
hurts due to my pushing on the graver. Thanks for confirming this for me. I need
to be aware of this and practice, practice, practice ..... , and I will do that.

BUT, all that said, the Lindsay Point is still pretty slick.

Les Schowe

 

[Michael McGrew]

Show Us Your "heels" ;-)

There is always much discussion about the length of the heels on various engravers. It is hard for a new engraver (which I count myself a member) to visualize a ".0010" heel. Would it be possible for the "Masters" in the class that use microscopes to show us close ups of their "favorite" heels? A close up with something in the background for perspective (a dime maybe) would be very helpful to compare against. Just a suggestion. Please feel free to move this to a more appropriate thread if desired.

 

[Ron Smith]

I apologize for the double entry. I thought I had lost the first one and so I submitted another. Sorry!! Just call me blabbermouth..............Ron S

 

[Tira]

leschowe,

Ken Hunt in his master class talked about holding the graver in your hand very loosely (with a light pressure) - he said it was similar to fencing where you hold the foil in your hand. Imagine holding an egg. He said that if you hold on to it in a relaxed manner it will be very responsive, but if you have the grip of death on it - not so much. Try to relax your hand (wrist and arm as well) and let the tool do the cutting. Easier said than done - I know - I've spent quite a bit of time with an imprinted index finger myself.

 

[Ron Smith]

With the palm tool, (in the old days) Ha Ha, that was one of the imprints of the trade of the occupational engraver. You gained a tough calous on your palm and index finger from the pressure of gripping and pushing the tool day in and day out. I have lost that calous now and haven't gotten one from using the gravermax. The heel on the tool will vary according to the job and the person. You will find what is comfortable to you, but I have found from teaching, that most people use too much heel and cut too deep in the beginning, but that is relative to the other things I mentioned and even if you could see, personality still applies and it is feel more than it is sight. Developing that sense of touch is what you are doing and what you must do, which is what kenny was talking about..........Ron S

 

[monk]

ah, sometimes you can slip a short length of vinyl or rubber tubing onto a graver. that can lessen the abuse your finger takes. although if you are doing things properly, your finger shouldn't be getting too much of a bruising. if you're using power assist, let the power tool do the work. if you're pushgraving, concentrate more of your force at the back of the graver holder. this distributes the load more evenly to the palm of your hand.

 

[leschowe]

Tira,
I think that you are exactly correct but it is really hard to do.
I have tried to experiment by making some very tight turns and holding the handpiece
as lightly as possible. Just use the angle of the graver to determine the depth of
cut with no force. Things seem to work quite well when I do this and I do
not tear up the edges. Then, when I think that I have things figured out, I
start cutting a practice plate and get really involved in making the perfect cut.
Pretty soon my index finger starts really hurting and I realize that I have a
death grip on the graver. Can't seem to do two things at once.
It's a good thing that GRS doesn't make their handpieces out of egg shells.

Les Schowe

 

[Powderhorn]

Leshowe:
Take it from one who is still learning, it will just take time to get it right. The more you practice, the sooner it comes. If you can, take a class from one of the teachers, or find someone that you can sit in with, you will be surprised at what you will learn.

 

[pappy]

Scuffing tight curves

Hi Leschowie!
I am sort of a beginner also and I had the same problem. If you look at Steve's point instructions, he has a paragraph near the end about cutting a negative 2 degree relief angle and slightly make a small flat carefully on the belly of the tool. I also changed the lift angle to 16 or 17 degrees. This changes the point geometry. There are instructions for that too in his web sight. My problem wasn't the cutting edge, it was the belly of the tool about 1/32 back from the cutting edge. The 2 degree negative relief solved this for me.
Hope this helps!
Pappy
p.s. I am a machinist, so I took my six inch scale, put it long ways on a surface plate with an angle block to back it up, and with a height gage with a sharp point I scribed four lines .005" apart. This way I can stick the end of the ruler under the scope and measure my heel against it. It isn't perfect because the scribe lines have width but at least I can measure heel widths with it. It helped me.

 

[monk]

i used to grip a push graver so tight and for such long periods, i would sometimes have to pry my fingers away from the graver holder to put the graver down. that's very counter productive ! tira is so right, this work is so much better when you relax !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[rod]

Thank you all for a very good and broad posting, with many valuable viewpoints!

I would like to write more, but this dang New Zealander, Andrew Biggs, and his lovely Mary arrived last night into Mendocino, and instead of talking shop, we just walked the cliff edge path today looking at sea lions. The weather was bright and clear. Andrew was asking about the Grey Whale migration when suddenly the Pacific shore blew up like water fountains in Las Vegas! A pod of about twenty whales went wild and put on a continuous show for us. The weather promises to remain clear until we set out to cross the Sierras by Donner Pass to get to Reno, so we are hoping for more. We Skyped Coincutter in Denver, and had a good chat. They are staying in my workshop which has an apartment and appear to be loving the change of culture while in the US. Hopefully we will get down to shop talk tomorrow, and I will leave time to show them the giant redwoods plus play some music. We all send our regards!

Rod