Master engraver?

[sam]

My martial arts instructor told me a black belt does not mean you have arrived but have mastered the basics enough to begin learning. Seems to apply to my engraving experience

Lee, I had no idea you were into martial arts. I'm a trained ninja myself, and we mop the floor with black belts.

 

[Crossbolt]

In my training I just mopped the floor
Jeremy

 

[diandwill]

In my training I just mopped the floor
Jeremy

Wax on...wax off! LOL

 

[Big-Un]

Ah-h, now you learn Grasshoppa!

 

[Lee]

Real men don't need a weapon- mop- we stare them to death. Sam if we must duel I propose wet spaghetti noodles. I'll give you a good whippin

 

[Thierry Duguet]

I was once told that "professional" means you get paid for what you do. I don't think it denotes any great ability, just that you can get others to put out money for you to do it. That's why I like that FEGA has gone to the master title. It says that you know what you are doing. Unfortunately, to some it means you know all there is to know, and that is almost always a very bad thing to assume!

One sell himself more than one sell his ability. I order to "succeed" talent is not a requisite but does help. Engraving like any human activity is not exempt from this simple axiom, do I need to give name! A Master is not an enlighten dilettante as he make is living out of his craft, by doing so he prove that the quality of his work is not solely the result of a disproportionate amount of time spend on his work. It is my experience that the better the individual the faster he is, he may not spend less time than you or I on a given project but the final result will be more detail and sharper that is where mastery come into play.
As for this Master conversation,............ Unlike Marcus I do believe that the title should only belong to a small elite.
Master has always been a comparative "title" who might have been seen as such 30 years ago when the average quality of US engravers was so low need to be reevaluate to reflect the much improve quality of the work produce in this country. If Master continue to be a comparative title maybe we should have only one a year, If we want to make the title reflect a constant the criteria should be well define and the deliberation of the judge should be secret, I will add that the judgement should be based on rational standards where the esthetic appeal would be but one of the criteria.

 

[mitch]

As for this Master conversation,............ Unlike Marcus I do believe that the title should only belong to a small elite.
Master has always been a comparative "title" who might have been seen as such 30 years ago when the average quality of US engravers was so low need to be reevaluate to reflect the much improve quality of the work produce in this country. If Master continue to be a comparative title maybe we should have only one a year, If we want to make the title reflect a constant the criteria should be well define and the deliberation of the judge should be secret, I will add that the judgement should be based on rational standards where the esthetic appeal would be but one of the criteria.

a few things-
yes, i also believe any such "master" designation should be a rarely awarded privilege. and Thierry you are correct about the state of engraving in this country (and elsewhere, too) 30 years ago. at that time, i was the youngest member of FEGA's "Professional" ranks, yet looking back, there's no way my work of that era would qualify today. there are just too many better engravers now.

as for establishing [somewhat] objective criteria, i'd suggest separate categories of various skills. scrollwork (possibly even specific styles), inlays (perhaps both lines, figures, & raised), lettering, scenes, etc. in order to earn a "Master" rating, one would have to pass muster on a certain number of these skills, maybe even with successive levels recognized, i.e. "Master 1" for the minimum, up to "Master 4 or 5" if somebody can do virtually everything. with this system, it would encourage some to work on areas where their skills are lacking.

conversation at FEGA: "So how's your Master application going?"

"Pretty good, I'm at level 2. I've passed scrolls & scenes, but still need to improve my lettering."


my $0.02

 

[sam]

Whenever this subject comes up we get so many excellent ideas. :clapping:

 

[Thierry Duguet]

Maybe we should recognize that the craft encompass different skill set. A gun engraver is not a jeweler so perhaps two specific Master title would be better, of course one could have both. There are other types of engraving like die maker, etc, each specialty might be recognize as such as long as the basic of our type of engraving is respected, the basic being removing or displacing metal by hand.
Some of us will never be Master, either by chose or because of a lack of talent, one can argue that one does not like gold inlay or scroll or game scene or lettering and it is perfectly acceptable but if one want to be call Master one need to be able to do it all with a high degree of mastery, it is not about like or dislike it is about proving that one can do it successfully even if one never want to do it again. You could argue that the effort might need to be rewarded and that a progressive mastery should be available but I think that it is a bad idea, one is not half a medical doctor or half an architect, either one is or one is not. Furthermore it will be very confusing to the outside world as this “Title” will be use to actively seek clients who, in most case, will not even be aware of the Master scale of competency.
I also think that people should get an incentive to undertake the quest, in that perspective I think that all engraver who endeavor to teach should be known as master (in Belgium they were). I recently spoke to two students learning gunsmithing and engraving, one of them told me that the teacher would not inlay gold on a 45 because it is too difficult, I think that this person do not have any business teaching, if she cannot do something so simple what else is she unable to do? I think the guild should actively discourage the employment of incompetent teachers in public institution, a good master program could be a great tool to do so.

 

[SamW]

Now all we need is about a dozen volunteers with lots of spare time!!

 

[FANCYGUN]

All good points and observations being raised...engraving skills coverba wide array of style and discilines...however since this certificate/title is being given by the FIREARMS engravers guild the think the area of certifcation would be self explanatory

 

[FANCYGUN]

Typing on an Ipad is not one of my talents excuse the misspellings

 

[Thierry Duguet]

All good points and observations being raised...engraving skills coverba wide array of style and discilines...however since this certificate/title is being given by the FIREARMS engravers guild the think the area of certifcation would be self explanatory

You are right but it was my impression that the Firearms Engraver Guild did open its door to more than gun engraver.

 

[Roger B]

Maybe we should recognize that the craft encompass different skill set. A gun engraver is not a jeweler so perhaps two specific Master title would be better, of course one could have both. There are other types of engraving like die maker, etc, each specialty might be recognize as such as long as the basic of our type of engraving is respected, the basic being removing or displacing metal by hand.

This would be fine if the name of the guild was the "Engravers Guild" or something similar but remember the body who assess potential masters is the "Firearms Guild of America" - a little more specific

Roger

 

[FANCYGUN]

Membership in FEGA has always been open to all engraving disciplines. The only issue in the past has been displaying at our annual show/meeting of non firearms due to the fact that we were show partners with the gunmakers guild and we were not able to always do what we would have liked to,show wise on many different levels however this is no longer an issue since we have gone our seperate ways FEGA membership remains the same as always and the welcome doors are wide open to all engravers and enthusiast all of our officers and members past and present have worked hard and have made many personal sacrifices to make our guild the success it has become

 

[Roger B]

My apologies for posting comments similar to some that had already been included.

I have no dispute that FEGA has been open to various fields of engraving but if members were to put themselves forward for assessment who is going to confer the title of Master for die engravers for example - I would have thought that these disciplines should be assessed by the highest skilled members in those particular fields and I imagine that those engravers may not likely be members of FEGA. A whole new can of worms could be opened if we start treading on others toes.

Roger

 

[Roger Bleile]

While membership in FEGA is open to all disciplines, to attain Master certification one must demonstrate their work on at least one firearm.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

A lot of what has been suggested is already happening.

The applicants are judged on their work according to specific criteria such as scrolls, scene work, lettering, inlays etc etc. They must submit a minimum of two guns and what is not on the gun must be on a plate.

Here is the application form if anyone wants to read it http://fega.com/about/MasterEngraverApplication.pdf The only thing that has changed is the level is now 8 not 7 (I have to change the application form)

So it's all pretty simple really. Get a couple of guns, engrave them according to the criteria and submit your work. You will either pass or not. If not, then try again as many have had to do.

The guns and plate are only a canvas to present the work on, that is all they are. To many people get hung up on that. At the end of the day it's just metal in the shape of a gun. If you can engrave a watch or a knife then you can engrave a gun................The one thing that is not specified is style or technique. So if you are into carving, chasing, single point, die making or whatever, then you can do it in that style or technique. The critical element in all this is the actual finished work must be of a very high standard and prove that you are capable of producing such high level work.

No one is suggesting that by becoming a FEGA Master engraver that you are a master of every single aspect and style of engraving. That is impossible for anyone to achieve in a lifetime. Having different categories and levels just complicates a very simple process.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Barry Lee Hands]

I agree with all that Andrew states above.
Marty's historical synopsis is quite accurate also.
And , as i said before in this thread, if and when we have a large constintuency in FEGA asking for major changes, the BOD, or, the membership at the general meeting will make those changes.
FEGA's BOD and i as President are interested in representing our members interests as best as we possibly can.

 

[diandwill]

I assume there is already a Master Die Maker program. I know there is a Master Jeweler award. One has to take a written test and then show high proficiency in many common jobs, while being timed. The award is based on quality, time and knowledge. I don't know if it involves any engraving or not. I have not applied, too busy, but a jeweler I worked with was interested and got all the literature. He was a fabulous jeweler, but was too slow to pass.

As far as the Doctors and Architects that Thierry brought up, there are many ranges of Doctors ranging from General Practitioners to Brain/Heart surgeons, with many specialties...and in every one there are people that should not be there, whether it is because of skill or attitude matters little. I also saw, when I worked in the building trades. many very fine architectural designs that met all the building codes, but were deemed un workable by the master carpenter that was in charge of doing the work. Those that did the work every day knew what would actually work, support and stand, while architects, much like some jewelry designers, like flourishes that are just unacceptable, if normal use is to be allowed.