"More stuff" rhetorical response

[Ron Smith]

Ozengraver, I respect your love for the flair of the "old time" engravers works. I have that same love.
When you learn from a master, teacher, you tend to follow his perfection, but that is somewhat the difference in the hobby approach verses the occupational approach, or the isolated engraver verses the "connected" engraver. Don't get me wrong. I am not critisizing either, just lamenting the differences. I love this art at its worst. Most beginners today have an oportunity to learn the finer points of engraving and they try to emulate what they see. In the occupation of engraving, some of the processes of the "modern" engraver are too cumbersome for the occupational engraver. If you are trying to make a living at it, you must be fast and effecient and accurate at the same time. When this art, if ever, evolves into the interest of the one who wants to make a living at it, you might have to change your tactics a bit to compete in price with an occupational engraver who can do things in half the time. It is hard to prove that point without being in the full equipped environment and attitude of the full time engraver shop. You WON'T be able to make enough or stay busy doing masterpieces alone, so I might reccommend versatility as a means of acquiring enough work to be able to work at it full time. Bask in the luxury of being able to pick and choose. I came up through the jewelry trade and let me tell you. You can't afford to be slow. The pace is all together challenging to say the least.

Learn to put your work on many things, and learning any other craft that compliments the trade is benificial. This describes the differences in the examples you have shown us, and the examples you see done by the accomplished engravers that have worked their way up possibly at their leisure, but probably through much struggle without the pressures of making a successful business. Most engravers in my era had some alternate way to make money and took up engraving on the side. This is the optimum way to learn, and it probably is the most fun. It is a distinct advantage with the luxury of an alternate income, so in this case they can be involved in whatever they want without the pressures of the economic requirements to survive.

Having made my living at this, I can attest to the fact that a lot of engravers today probably wouldn't be involved in engraving if they had to make the survival sacrifices required. It is easy to be a champion when you are getting paid lots of money for your efforts. It is not however so easy, when you are having to give your economic welfare up instead.

Having said all of that, that is the reasons for the "sketchy" looking example you showed us and I agree. There is something attractive about it. It seems to retain that human hand appearance or something.

I don't know if you are interested in what I have to say about these things, but maybe you are, and understanding is the key to your full enjoyment of your craft. One must be mentally prepared to face the requirements, depending on what your purpose is, so the knowledge you need is relative to that. These are just my attempts to help you understand another, maybe more desperate side of this art.................Ron S

 

[Ray Cover]

Thats a good point Ron,

When I first started out the guys I admired as engravers were Lynton, Sam, Steve and you. When people look at my work today they can see those four influences in my work. Early on my goal was to emulate you guys and perfection in both technique and design was my goal (part of that came from having a prototype machinist and knifemaker as a father who ate, breathed and slept "fit and finish").

That being said there have been many jobs I have done over the years to put food on the table or pay the mortgage that did not allow me to go over the top with the work. IT had to be cut and on to the next one to make the bills.

It is possible to make an enjoyable living as an engraver but it truly is like any other job. One day you walk into work and find one of those dream jobs on your bench. Other days you walk in look at your bench and think," Oh no, not another one of THOSE".

At this point in my career, my customer base seems to be constantly pushing the bar up. It seems that every customer wants bigger and better than the last. I thrive on that now, but it has taken me almost 20 years to build that clientèle. Furthermore I had to work my tail off that whole time to do it and do many jobs along the way that were not my favorite (but they paid the bills).

Ray

 

[pilkguns]

As usual, Ron's thoughts are profound. As a fulltime, self employed working engraver throughout my 20's and 30's, I know more than most it takes a lot to be successful. You must be a promoter of yourself, an accountant, a time manager and more to be successful as businessman, all before you worry about your engraving skills, which obviosuly have to be good enough to satisfy the level of customers that you initially deal with. These other things can take lots more of your time than you anticipate, so you have to maxmize your time while engraving both to get the job done and earn your maximum potential. A working engraver has to work, and whatever tools he can get to work more efficiently are something that needs to be looked at strongly. If its soemthing that cost a bit more,but will save him eye, back, carpal tunnel or other health issues in the future, then maybe its worth the investment now, not counting the current benefits of increased production. To do something the old way, just because it was always done that way is great if its your hobby. It's very poor thinking if it's your living.

 

[Tom Curran]

I appreciate what you have to say, Ron. Masterpieces are what I live for, but can't live ON. I don't get paid for dreaming, which is half the fun of coming up with a masterpiece.

So, keep it coming.

Thanks,
Tom

 

[richard hall]

ron, i saw that capper and the bullet mould you engraved here in the forum, that stimulated and awed me at the same time. one nice thing about being a new engraver,with little skill, you can still choose your projects. i have enough stuff that i can decorate and embellish ,cappers,tobacco boxes,bullet moulds, old knives, muzzleloaders, and not have to listen to the gripes of others, yet... but you are right about being versatile and being able to adapt. maybe however, i better sigh up for welfare !!!!!!!

 

[sdcoxx]

Ron,
I appreciate the fact you and others are willing tell it like it is. Thankfully, I am past the stage of life for having aspirations of being a professional engraver. I have to much fun playing with my toys...
Thanks for the enlightment,
Stephen

 

[KCSteve]

Boy does a lot of this thread sound familiar!

I do a little consulting and a little photography and the concerns are just the same in those fields as well.

Whatever you want to do for a living, you're not only going to have to do it well enough to be able to make a living from it, you're going to have to do a lot of work just so you can do the work you want - or let someone else control your work (i.e., get a job).

Somebody's got to make sure your well enough known (and to the right people) to get a chance at the work.
Somebody's going to have to deal with the messy details of the transaction of the work - when will you start, how long will it take, how much will you get paid, when will you get paid, exactly what are you doing, etc..

Most professional photographers spend the bulk of their time doing things like weddings, senior (and other related) portraits, and other such 'fun' things. I do know one guy who makes a quite good living doing Nature (and now some Travel) photography. He's gone with digital now but he used to haul a 70lb pack + tripod for up to three hours so he could be on location before dawn with his 4x5" gear. That 70lb pack just held the camera gear - no camping stuff - so he had to hike back out at the end of the day (usually after dark, of course). He could carry enough film for about 36 exposures. Kevin's work is beautiful but he works constantly. I find him both inspirational and daunting: it's inspirational to know you can live that well off of just your photography but it's daunting to see just how much work it takes (and how many years of it it takes to get to that nice living).

Whatever you want to do, if you don't know your 'stuff', you're hosed. But if you don't know the business stuff you get hosed.

Me, I'm happy with being a hobby engraver - at least for now.

 

[michaelp]

This may be a stupid question. that said, I have taken a basic class at grs with Rex and I am signed up for 2 more classes with Lee in June. now to my question. is there anywhere to take classes in ocupational style of engraving. my goal is to engrave full time someday, and I know there is alot more to it. is it a case of having to go to the school of hardknocks?

 

[dontate]

I fully agree with Ron and the others with what has been stated. Although I do not do metal engraving as a career and simply learning it, I have been a professional glass engraver and have learned that most of what I do is for large companies that will pay "by the hour" for a job to be done. I have to work within their schedule and engrave on the days that the desire their work to be done. It is quite different from metal engraving, but the "business side" is quite similar. Also, I am a professional calligrapher on paper as well as on the "engraving side of the business." That is also true in this area as I have done this professionally now for well over twenty years. Don

 

[Unkl Ian]

... how much will you get paid, when will you get paid,...

I used to think business was a 3 step process.

1-Get the work.
2-Do the work.
3-Get paid for the work.

#2 is the most enjoyable,and frequently the easiest of the three.

Getting paid has always been the big stumbling block for me.
The more money the customer has,the more trouble I've had collecting.

Then they act surprised when I don't want to deal with them any more.

 

[pilkguns]

Mike,
Not sure what you want but I offer this that is maybe in the ballpark of what you are looking for. Certainly many of those occupational issues can be discussed in the time frame.

http://www.learn2engrave.com/confidencecourse.shtml

 

[pilkguns]

I used to think business was a 3 step process.

1-Get the work.
2-Do the work.
3-Get paid for the work.

#2 is the most enjoyable,and frequently the easiest of the three.

Getting paid has always been the big stumbling block for me.
The more money the customer has,the more trouble I've had collecting.

Then they act surprised when I don't want to deal with them any more.

Amen to all of this LOL!

 

[Ray Cover]

Mike,

I don't know that I would say that there was an occupational style and an art style as much as I would say that there is "taking your time to make sure everything is perfect" style and then there is "find ways to and tricks to save time" style. Those are probably going to vary form one person to another.

Of course, there are differences in things like Western bright cut being much faster than covering the same surface with bulino. Even within those techniques there are fast ways and perfectionist ways.

I think a class on making it as a professional engraver would best serve its students by teaching the business end of things rather than faster cutting techniques. How to deal with taxes, customers, retirement, take care of the books and record keeping , etc.

Honestly I think those are the things that are more of a challenge to most of us rather than cutting. Like Scott said those can be the more important factors in whether you make it or not as a business.

Ray

 

[Ozgraver]

I have had two ideal and entirely separate careers in my working life; the second brought about through life-changing injury. Both occupations have been as a top level craftsperson, teacher and employer, and I'm all too aware of the balance between putting bread on the table and ever wanting to be the perfectionist.

I was lucky enough to rise to the pinnacle of my chosen trades and in all my 40 years of self-employment, I have never advertised or canvassed for work - it has always sought me out.

I now live in Australia and even after I moved here some 15 years ago, I continued to receive regular work and commissions from former clients and new customers from abroad.

Maybe I was lucky to be in a position to pick and choose my jobs, but I firmly believe it was my unwavering commitment to produce work of only the highest quality that placed my work in such demand.

Ron, I believe perfection and commercialism can go hand in hand. I believe the "sketchy" style as you describe it was born out of a lifetime of perfecting one's skill and not just a case of minimalism dredged from the strain of volume working.

The people who engraved those pieces of high status silver objet d'art were at the zenith of their profession, as in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, the maker's and engraver's pedigrees were held in just as high esteem, if not more so, than the objects themselves.

There were no corners cut in the execution of the engraving on any of the pieces of silver I illustrated; theirs was a style perfected and demanded by the flamboyant period of excellence they lived in.

Nowadays the majority of the top exponents of the skill seem to work predominately on guns and knives which traditionally have their own unique style requiring a more clinical degree of perfection.

Outstanding as the few may be, I do wonder if they are capable of emulating the work of their counterparts of centuries past.

I appreciate most people here, like myself, are hobby engravers and few, if any, will ever attain the degree of brilliance to be able to perform such fine work, but it's great fun trying!

 

[Tim Wells]

I really treasure threads like this one. There are a LOT of hard knock, hard learned years of experience laid right out here for all of us to learn from and hopefully not repeat anyones mistakes.

Thank you all for sharing your insight on all of the ins and outs of this field. This is good stuff and we would all do well to copy these words and paste them in a file so we can re-visit it any time to remind ourselves lest we goof up in our own respective endeavors.

 

[pilkguns]

The people who engraved those pieces of high status silver objet d'art were at the zenith of their profession, as in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, the maker's and engraver's pedigrees were held in just as high esteem, if not more so, than the objects themselves.

There were no corners cut in the execution of the engraving on any of the pieces of silver I illustrated; theirs was a style perfected and demanded by the flamboyant period of excellence they lived in.

Oz, no disrespect intended, but I would be proud to have the tongs in my collection, whereas the other two would not rate second glance if I saw them in antique store or flea market somewhere. The pieces you refer to are poorly done at best, the work of an apprentice or a recent journeyman, at least the first two shown. The tongs from an execution standpoint are clearly the best work, showing far more of a skilled hand than the other two even considering that it is a simpler pattern. I have had the enjoyment and privilege of touring many fine museums across Europe, Asia and the US, with a keen interest and more than critcal eye towards engraving and I can assure that many fine works were done by engravers far surpassing your illustrations several centuries earlier, both in a minimulist style and much more detailed scenes. There are quality levels of a illustration, whether there is one or one hundred cut lines used to achieve a certain design or body part. Many examples of 12 century and onward work show a more masterful use of gravers whether used for scroll or figures.

Best,

Scott

 

[Andrew Biggs]

1-Get the work.
2-Do the work.
3-Get paid for the work.

#2 is the most enjoyable,and frequently the easiest of the three.

The only other thing I would add to that is ................ paperwork!!!!

Endless amounts of paperwork. 25 years ago I used to be able to run up a ladder and signwrite a building hassle free.

Now ............ I need traffic management plans, licenses, tickets on how to handle everything from asprin to nuclear bombs, safty cones from here to africa, fluro vests that have to emit so many whatsits under certain light conditions, helmets that have to sustain a meteorite strike from mars, 5000 bits of paper in triplicate, safty inspectors in triplicate, signs that tell the truly stupid in society to warn them to look where they are going, engineers reports saying the sign will still be standing in a size 3000 earthquake, taxes laid upon taxes with even more taxes stacked on top, and constantly dishing out money to government departments to fill out even more paperwork. And if I miss any of the above out I can go to jail for 100 years and get fined a trillion dollars............while some well meaning moron in the background is blathering on about eco friendly this and that and worried about the carbon footprint the sign may leave and how it may effect a child in the year 5010.

And then the client wonders why I charge them $500 for 2 hours work.

Yip.........doing the work is the easy bit!!!

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Ozgraver]

Oz, no disrespect intended, but I would be proud to have the tongs in my collection, whereas the other two would not rate second glance if I saw them in antique store or flea market somewhere. The pieces you refer to are poorly done at best, the work of an apprentice or a recent journeyman, at least the first two shown. The tongs from an execution standpoint are clearly the best work, showing far more of a skilled hand than the other two even considering that it is a simpler pattern. I have had the enjoyment and privilege of touring many fine museums across Europe, Asia and the US, with a keen interest and more than critcal eye towards engraving and I can assure that many fine works were done by engravers far surpassing your illustrations several centuries earlier, both in a minimulist style and much more detailed scenes. There are quality levels of a illustration, whether there is one or one hundred cut lines used to achieve a certain design or body part. Many examples of 12 century and onward work show a more masterful use of gravers whether used for scroll or figures.

Best,

Scott

No offence taken whatsoever!

I would have to disagree with your assumption that the engravers were apprentices or journeymen. On the contrary, the makers were some of the most highly regarded craftsmen of their time (the marks on the first piece are rubbed, but appears to be by Thomas Tysoe and the second piece was made by Paul Hanet for Samuel Snead, the former selling recently for over $1,000 and the latter for almost $4,000). I could have used many other quality examples, but I thought the animal masks were interesting.

Be careful not to confuse age related wear with lack of quality; the tongs are more than a hundred years younger (c. 1809) than either of the snuff boxes and so appear fresher and finer.

 

[Roger Bleile]

Oz wrote "There are so many examples of technically perfect engraving these days that they appear sterile and boring. I look at antique engraved silver and I see beautiful vibrant workmanship..."

My brother Carl and I were at a large gun show this past week and were discussing this very issue. We saw some modern work there that was absolutely perfection with multi colored inlays and, as engravers, we were well aware of the time, talent and effort that went into the pieces. Some of the comments from what I will call "non-connoisseurs" of the art indicated that they thought the work was done by some mechanical process such as enameling or even silk screening, as odd as that sounds. The same collectors are usually enraptured by Nimschke or Young's work that shows progress marks in the cuts and look chiseled out.

Now we, as engravers, may say the average gun collector is an ignorant boob who wouldn't know good scroll from a blind mole but it all depends on whom you are working for or trying to impress. It seems clear to me that in the world of custom made art knife collectors there is a definite preference (and willingness to pay for) works of artistic and technical perfection the likes of which the world has never seen. If an art knife were engraved in the manner of the scroll on a Nimschke 1866 Winchester it and its engraver may not receive acclaim in the knife market.

In the gun market there are various levels of work desired. As an example, I regularly compete in SASS matches. I use an Uberti copy of a 66 Winchester that I engraved very much in the Nimschke style. Heavily chiseled. I also shoot a revolver I engraved in a much finer style of scroll with use of fine single point shading. At the loading and unloading tables I never fail to receive ooo's and ahaa's over the 66 and very little reaction to the revolver. The SASS market is a fairly low dollar market and the customer likes his engraving bold because they admire the Colts and Winchesters of the Nimschke, Young, Ulrich and Glahn era. It is also because these guns are put to hard use and nearly invisible bulino work would not last long or be well observed.

The clay target shooter is yet again another market. Definitely higher dollar since the basic gun can easily be over $10,000. to start with. Yet the clay shooter who wants engraving still likes it visible down the trap line so likes raised inlays and a somewhat bolder though finely shaded work. While these competition guns are shot a lot they are not roughly handled like the cowboy shooters guns.

Then there is the high-end collector who demands the highest level of work and usually has no intention of ever shooting his entirely hand made gun that he just paid from $60-200,000. for. He has read every issue of Double Gun Journal and Shooting Sportsman as well as every Abbiatico and Nobili book and compares every engraving to the works of the great modern masters.

There may be other markets for the gun engraver but I'm sure you get the idea. The above is not news to the old hands here. All of this is to say that you must understand the customer or you may be wasting your time creating work that is unappreciated.

One last comment about works of engraving art in precious metal: When the engraver works in precious metal his efforts are likely to be melted down at some time in the future due to the scrap value of the piece. The most famous goldsmith of all time, Benvenuto Cellini (1500-1571), has suffered this curse. Of all the fine works he created in precious metal there are only known to exist 5 or 6 pieces. An engraved weapon has little scrap value but is immediately seen as something of value by nearly anyone. Thus the high survival rate of ornate antique weapons.

I had better end here before I write another book!

Roger

 

[monk]

there exist so many "styles" of engraving. so many paths we all may take. over the years it was never practical for me to become a fulltimer. i don't regret for a minute not pursuing this art 100%. early on i became interested in the work done on blackpowder guns. and certain other early types, like ljn, just to name 1. i aspire to become as good as possible, but i know in the years i have left, i don't have the time to rise to the level of nimschke. i certainly could never rise to the level of some of the people posting on the forum now. i would like to become as good as louis was. because i enjoyed that style of work, or its' appearance. if i were suddenly granted the super skills of many of our forum participants, i would still probably do guns in the nimschke sort of way. just simply because it is what pleases my eye the most. nothing is more fantastic than some of this modern work, i just like the old style better. i think there's enough different style for all engravers and all clients !