New engraving machine announcement.

[Leonardo]

Dear Cafe members,

Although I was thinking and thinking, and looking for the right words to make you this announcement delicately, unfortunately I have not found any way other than the strait way so, counting with the Sam permission, I would like to tell you the following:

I have invented and developed a multi-axes cnc engraving machine that is capable to engrave like engraving by hand. This has been a long term (four years) project and now it is the time to bring it to the light, putting it under the public consideration.
The machine will be showed for the very first time at the “36th International Exhibition of Inventions, New Techniques and Products of Genevaâ€￾ (2nd to 6th April 2008), and I would like to share this event with all the Engraver’s Cafe members.

I know that, may be, this news can “hurtâ€￾ some engravers souls, but it is far of my intention at all. What I am really looking for is helping instead of compete. This machine can do a lot of things but will never replace the artisan master hand and, even more important, the creativity and passion of a person.

I will be providing you information and a link to download a catalog in the next days, but to advance some data, it is a five/six axes cnc dual machine (two tools head: one for engraving and the other with a 500W milling motor) controlled by a Plug-in program in CorelDRAW. If you can draw your design in Corel the machine will engrave/mill it.
You can find attached a picture showing a plate engraved with the machine.

Hope you can see this machine as a contribution to the hand engravers activity.

Kindest regards,
Leonardo.

 

[richard hall]

Leonardo, someone had to come up with the invention, better it comes from one of our own. i havent learned to embrace the micro-wave oven yet ! old ways die hard, i still use hammer and chisel , its what iam comforable with. i do know this much, times change and we have to alter to them. we may not jump on the bandwagon right off,but men and woman will try it, then sing the praises for others to follow. i would imagine that when the new fangled air-tools came out that there was resistance,but they adapted. thanks for the heads up and good luck in your endeavor. Leo, i guess engravers as a whole hope that the new machine is priced out of all but the gun factorys reach. i also doubt you"ll be loved by the factory engravers, but hey, i was all happy about the invention of the wheel, as that lead to high gas prices....like i said, we had just talked about such things in a thread not long ago,but someone would finally bring this new monster amoung us to deal with. if it hadnt been you, it would have been someone else. we will just have to deal with it, as the members have stated, it will not take the place of hand engraving, as hand made has more value to it.

 

[Leonardo]

Hi Richard,
Thank you very much for your words. We all agree, and me the first, that nothing can replace the value of the artisan's work. It is just another tool, may be a sophisticated one but a tool at last.
Regarding the price, we will try that this machine will be affordable for any professional engraver, not only for the factories.
Leonardo

 

[JJ Roberts]

Richard,
Have no fear the traditional hammer & chisel and hand gravers are still alive and well. I have students who build muzzle loaders from scratch, and insist on learning the traditional way. I also teach the power assist method. You have a wide choice as far as engraving, you don't really have to spend a lot of money with a few tools you can get off to a good start.

Leonardo,
I am curious about your new engraving tool..is it hand held? Powered by electricity or air?

 

[pilkguns]

Leonardo,

I have seen some hi-tech engraving CNC machines in Belgium, that did scrollwork, background, and even a passable copy of bulino. Normally the guns that are engraved with these are touched up with some hand engraving. the computer mapping for 3D stuff is quite hard I understand, and it is these areas that need the most touch-up, but can you explain what is different about your design?

 

[Martin Strolz]

Leonardo,
The picture, you have attached is 100 by 63 pixel in size and I cannot see anything in it. Please show us larger
pictures of sample engravings of your machine.
On of the best U.S. business contacts for you might be Mr. Mike Davis, publisher of THE ENGRAVERS JOURNAL, the industry`s leading monthly publication. www.engraversjournal.com Contact him and let him know about your new developments.
Martin

 

[Marcus Hunt]

As far as making any impact on hand engraving, nobody going to buy a
knife done in the Sam Alfano style produces buy a machine.
What makes it a worth the money is that Sam Alfono spent his time
making it, or Winston Churchill, Ron Smith, etc.

I agree with you wholeheartedly Jim but where it will make a difference is for the low end production engraved stuff. Some people just like a bit of 'pretty' and aren't bothered about whether it's hand done or not. On the other hand you get the connoisseurs and collectors of engraving who fully understand and appreciate what goes into the art. These people want unique pieces and not part of a production run. But we mustn't be complacent or the machine will kill off production hand engraving.

Beretta already use a system which carves their shotguns and I was totally amazed when I saw one. It would give a good engraver a run for the money but.....and it's a big BUT.... what you get is something that hundreds of other people own too. There is no individuality but it does look good, of that there is no doubt.

I would be very interested to see how these machines cost out and if I had a contract with someone like Ruger I would definitely consider getting one if the price was right. And that's the thing, hand engraving really lends itself to one offs. Set up time for hand engraving is minimal whereas setting up the computer with drawings, etc will take a considerable time so you need a machine made piece that can be replicated over and over.

Please keep us informed of your progress Leonardo.

 

[Dan Grubaugh]

Good morning to all. This is an interesting topic to say the least. How this machine will be "received" by the engraving world will be very interesting. I agree with Marcus, collectors will more than likely not be intersested collecting "large factory run guns w/ machine engraving on them" as they are no different than what everone else has. From an optimistic view, I think....if priced right, this could be another tool added to one's arsenal. If a person could be proficant with this machine, it could open up the "engraving market" to the average fella that wants some "affordable pretty stuff" on his gun. I am talking about the guys that would not normally spend the $$ on this kind of stuff. Like I said earlier though, a person would first have to get proficiant at this machines operation in order for it to be profitable. Just my 2 cents worth.
Dan Grubaugh

 

[KCSteve]

That's basically what I was thinking Marcus - a good machine engraver will help get fair quality engraving out in front of a lot more people which will most likely increase the demand for good hand engraving.

Sure, at first having a 'standard' engraved Winchester (or whatever) will stand out at the range, but give it a year or so and...

 

[mbroder]

The photo is too small. I can't see any detail.

 

[Dan Grubaugh]

Leonardo, Just a couple of quick questions......

I am assuming that this machine will do radious or curved surfaces plus the normal flat surface. Is this correct?
When will this machine be available to the public?

I am seeing some posibilities for putting such a "monster" to good use. Please keep me informed.
Regards,
Dan Grubaugh

 

[richard hall]

Leonardo, been mulling this over in my head. as i see things, we already use computors , graphics,and make transparences, using machines to help our work. maybe we can see this as a extension of our work? good lord, if we had a laser etcher to use to transfer our drawings to the project instead of the old traditional ways iam sure we would use it to our benifit and not have to worry about smearing and such. it will take some time to adjust our thinking and not rant and rave like our nervious system wants us to do. the old saying about we have nothing to fear but fear itself, holds true here. it is a wait and see thing for now. people fear being put out of work,that could happen, or they could get your machine to stay ahead of the game !! just hard to say.. would be nice if the machine could do inlay work,by that i mean take the undercut down say .015 to put in .018 wire, but wishful thinking maybe. i cant even afford the wire !!!!!!!!

 

[mdengraver]

For some reason I can't open your attachment.

 

[griff silver]

Leverage is key

as the old saying goes layout is key! if people can get past the man or machine arguement ,and i think they will as it was said before they are completely differnt markets, This machine offers an incredible oppertunity for an artist to leverage his talents, the artwork and vision that is required to create a "design" must still come from the artist, from there it can be givin to the robot (for lack of a better word) and produced at much higher rate. with a higher production rate a smaller markup is feasable etc.... all of the sudden an artist can get for a drawing what the whloe darn job used to pay. FOOD FOR THOUGHT I have had dreams of making such a machine but tend to get lost "wrighting code" however in my vision the machine could be programed by an engraver wearing a gloves with sensors on them that record motion and pressure data into code for the cnc machine to duplicate.. dunno if you thought of this or not but i bet the technolgy is avaliable. In short wow!! I want one please PM a price. thanke GRIFF

 

[Leonardo]

Hello!
First, thank you very much for your comments.

I can see that it is clear that the hand engraving art made by an artisan is safe and out off any discussion. I am very happy for that because, as I told you, this machine is only a new tool. A new recourse that will be available among many others to help in the day after day work.
Also, I would like to highlight some points: I saw a lot of computers and electronics, pneumatics and optical devices in the workbenches (that worth many more than a thousand dollars, Jim) in the Workbench thread, and very few of hammers and chisels. The man, in a natural way, looks for the less effort way.
Regarding to the computers and the CNC machines, it is true that it is needed to achieve some grade of training to “fightâ€￾ with this technologies but everybody can learn and nobody comes to this world knowing everything. Of course, the more knowledge the more juice you can suck! When Henry invented the Ford “Tâ€￾ almost nobody knows how to drive this thing but today anybody has a car and drive it in a natural attitude.

Regarding other questions, the machine will be capable of performing 3D surface jobs, but it will be a second step. To engrave on a cylinder, it is possible to attach a turning device that replace the Y axis by the turning axis. This M axis will be provided as an optional accessory. And regarding the price, we have not priced it yet but I can give to you a hint: it will has three zeroes to the right and a number a bit lower than three in the fifth place at the left side, the fourth place is still to be adjudicated.J

I really do not know what happened with the picture, it was loaded correctly. Anyway I am attaching new photos. Hope they works.

Best regards,
Leonardo

 

[richard hall]

LEO, like the concept. interesting tooling and inserts you have there. the photos stimulates the mind of what could be possible. ive run cnc for 19 years and programed them. if it was hard to set-up and run,which they are not, then a lot of people would have stayed on manual machines to get their 30 years in. it actually takes less time to learn how to set-up and operate a cnc than a manual, say 3 weeks for a cnc training compared to at least a year to get comfortable on a manual. i could show my wife quickly,leave her alone, come back later on to see how much money she made me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Leonardo]

Richard, I am very interested in the inlay capabilities and we are working in the carbide inserts geometries. The machine itself is capable of driving a tool that makes the canal but we need more time to developing these kind of applications. Thank you very much for your comments. Leonardo.

 

[richard hall]

jim, such an out fit wouldnt be much bigger than 4x6feet, give or take some feet. as for programs, you can write your own,if you can draw a straight line,if you can add numbers, your a programer. i think a m-16 would look great in scrolls,it makes its own flame. the hardest thing to accept is, its a machine. but, in reality,its just an extention of various machines that we practice using everyday. i dont like the idea of machines taking the place of my handwork just like most of us. later on we may feel different. we do however, have to face the facts that it is here. imagine the beltbuckles we could mass produce, we"d be our own Ford plant, and like ford, mass produce cuts costs. once you have a program, you save it, bring it up again with less down time. i cant afford a microscope right now. ill stick to my hammer and chisels for awhile. but, this is with us now, if we wish to keep engraving and ourselves going, we will have to adapt as we have for centuries.

 

[Ray Cover]

No, Jim, I won't be buying one.

I do agree with you that this type of technology will not have a huge effect on individual hand engravers until it is made affordable and MUCH smaller.

This is great for mass production companies and, as you mentioned, machine shops who invest in one and take in jobs for other companies. I can see Able Reels sending a job of 10,000 fly reels out to a guy for this type of engraving ... or a flatware company sending table settings out, etc.

I think that is a good thing. Here is my reasoning on that.

The fact that motorcycles are mass produced has not put a dent in the Tuttle's or Jesse James' business of building custom bikes. Both companies have done quite well in the middle of a predominantly mass produced market. There are a lot of guys out there who own a factory Harley and dream of owning a West Coast or East Coast Custom Bike. The mass produced Bikes make the Custom bike a status symbol that Rich people like Jay Leno buy and show off. The mass produced Bikes sort of "Keep the dream alive" for the guy who can't afford a high end bike. The mass produced bikes allow the owner of the Custom bike to ride down the road and say," Ya you got a nice Harley but look what I got".

I think it very logical for guns engraved by this or other machines to fill the niche of decorated guns for folks who can't afford to have one really custom built and hand engraved. The custom built and hand engraved guns will remain the status symbol for the more discriminating who can afford it.

IT is also my belief that such technology can make "machine engraved" items much more accessible to the overall market which is likely to make engraving in general more popular. That helps us.

Ray

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Yes, a couple of posts have been deleted.

We all have a right to disagree with one another and get our point of view across. Sometimes misunderstandings occur and we make unwise hostile responses. That's human nature and we all do it from time to time.


Agree or disagree with each other as much as you want.............but please, keep it civilised..... and absolutley no personal attacks on anyone.

Cheers
Andrew