Help, please: Newbie engraver, onglette heel help

[Matej]

Hello everyone, looking forward to partake in discussion here! I’m very new to engraving and just want to practice on some copper plates however I’m completely unsure if I’m even sharpening correctly.

I’m starting with push engraving using the GRS quick change system, I’ve bought a flat and onglette graver to go with it. Using a couple grades of diamond plates and a Crocker style sharpener. Face is at 45 degrees and heels approx. 15 degrees. Is the heel in the right place for this onglette? I’m not getting any curled metal when engraving and I feel like it’s pushing the metal apart more than actually engraving. It cuts like butter though and really wants to go in a straight line, curves tend to “bite” around the edges resulting in a horrible finish. These are the best pictures I could get (ignore the broken tip)

I’d appreciate any advice to help get me started as I’m finding it difficult to find reliable info, perhaps my foundational knowledge is lacking.

 

[allan621]

Well for a start your tool looks like its flat on the end, the tool is not sharpened correctly. It may be that the end has broken off. Your tool should come to a point.

If you cruise through youtube look for Sam Alfano videos about hand pushing. Try this one for a start. watch
And there are a whole lot of videos by hand engravers you could check out.

There have been a lot of questions about sharpening and sharpening angles. If you have then time go through the library of discussions using the search function, top left on the page.

Keep asking questions.

Allan

 

[monk]

get yerself a decent sharpening system. the crocker tool is not capable of producing repeatable geometry . you should also learn to design and draw well. good luck in your pursuits.

 

[mdengraver]

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[Chujybear]

Besides what has been mentioned (it looks like your tip is broken) you have far too dramatic of a heel on your tool...
I don’t know if this is what others do, but I’ll just stick a little metal ruler on my ceramic stone (just enough to raise the back of my tool) and drag the too while slightly rotating to follow the radius,.. just one pass on each side.

 

[Matej]

Besides what has been mentioned (it looks like your tip is broken) you have far too dramatic of a heel on your tool...
I don’t know if this is what others do, but I’ll just stick a little metal ruler on my ceramic stone (just enough to raise the back of my tool) and drag the too while slightly rotating to follow the radius,.. just one pass on each side.

Thank you, I’ve resharpened the graver and getting much better cuts now, perhaps 15 degrees in my head was much steeper than it actually is hahaha

 

[mtlctr]

Hand sharpening , though some can’t, can be learned . I‘ll paraphrase what L. McKenzie said, “optical flats are not necessary for engraving.”
it is however the most crucial aspect. Good luck

 

[AllenClapp]

I took a screen capture of your first photo. It looks like your face angle is very high--maybe 70 degrees. That makes it tough to cut. I could not tell if the end has broken off or if that is a heel. Regardless of whether the end has not been broken off and that is the ground heel angle or the end has broken off, your cutting angle is now greater than 90 degrees [i.e., a negative rake angle] and, thus, the graver would be in sculpting mode and can only push metal with great difficulty, instead of pushing a cut ribbon upward to curl off out of the way. If your graver will not cut a chip up and let it curl out of the way, you have a cutting angle issue. If you do not have one, get a 10X magnifying loop and check the sharpness and angles on the end of the graver before using. If the graver starts to slog down in the metal, check the point again. Also, make sure that the heels are even with each other or the graver will try to twist in the cut.

 

[mtlctr]

 

[cooper]

You can set a Crocker and add little dots so you can return to the same angles didn't McKenzie use some bars?

 

[Matej]

Thank you for all the advice! I’m still not able to get a cut with the onglette so I’ll set that aside for now. Meanwhile I managed to sharpen a flat into more of a facet graver shape using the Crocker. While not exactly ideal, it cuts!
The heel is definitely not even so will have to work on that, trying to look for some fixture templates I can 3D print at home to use instead of the Crocker to get consistent angles.

 

[mtlctr]

Yep kinda like this

You can set a Crocker and add little dots so you can return to the same angles didn't McKenzie use some bars?

yes, they , ( Crockers)been around a long time. Photo above kinda shows the setup Lynton used a round bar or drill bit call be used.

 

[JJ Roberts]

Steve Lindsay put out a book of McKenzie's smoke prints with picture's of McKenzie's sharping bench setup made up of stone's and drill rod for sharping his chisel's J.J.

 

[mitch]

Onglettes are one of the most difficult gravers to sharpen and do consistently. Id strongly recommend picking an easier battle at this point in your journey until your skills are more advanced and you have a specific need for onglettes.

 

[ByrnBucks]

Matej, Took quite a while to wrap my head around what was supposed to sharp where and why. The Lindsay 116 degree template really helped get the ball rolling, even then still took bit of tinkering before cutting became predictable. Last advantage to consider is once you get to snapping tips it’s not a roll of the dice to resharpen allowing for more focus on what you’re cutting. Have fun it’s totally worth it.

 

[mtlctr]

sharpen em & try pushing on a piece of scrap , you’ll find out quick if they’re right. if you can push em they should work with power or hammer. Snapping tips regularly,something wrong imo.

 

[FANCYGUN]

I have always found the onglette super easy to sharpen. Frank Hendricks showed Mike Dubber and myself how to do it years ago . Hard to describe how but just once watch it being done and it’s a no brainer by hand Dont over think it. Alain Lovenberg let Mike and I try one with no heel. Dang if it didn’t work

 

[Matej]

I’ve been reading a lot about no heel onglettes and that goes against everything I know about engraving (which in fairness is very little), I’ll give that a go and see how I get on!

 

[FANCYGUN]

The Lines we did cut were very light banknote style for deeper use a heel

 

[CMSchneider]

Thank you for all the advice! I’m still not able to get a cut with the onglette so I’ll set that aside for now. Meanwhile I managed to sharpen a flat into more of a facet graver shape using the Crocker. While not exactly ideal, it cuts!
The heel is definitely not even so will have to work on that, trying to look for some fixture templates I can 3D print at home to use instead of the Crocker to get consistent angles.

I tried this last year when I first got started. I’m happy to send my resulting templates to you. I’m attending Wes Griffin’s newbie class this weekend, but I can email those next week.

I ended up going to the Lindsey sharpening templates (trying a forty vs several hundred dollars for the GRS omni-vise just made sense) and highly recommend them for fellow beginners. Big time savers.