On Line Gun Engraving Example Details, Holt's Auctions - English Fine Scroll Example

[AliAtiyabi]

Hi Steve,

First of all I do appreciate your kind explanation. What bothers me is what has been said in the Purdey site as" In the closing decades of the 19th century, there was increasing demand for more ostentatious decoration, notably carved, chiseled and pictorial work." the following link.

http://www.purdey.com/guns-rifles/engraving/

Of course I have not contacted them for more explanation and confirmation as to whether they used the chisel but since the roses , if we do not say scrolls, were such clean in this post which push us to think they have not been engraved by burin.

Best Regards
Ali

 

[Roger Bleile]

Ali,

American gun engravers of the 20th and some in the 21st century, like Mr. Henderson, used hammer and chisel because, for the most part, the guns that we engrave have already been hardened when we get them. They are too hard to engrave by hand push. Probably 90% of the guns we are given to engrave are provided by individual clients who bought the gun in the finished state. In the 21 st century, most American gun engravers use air assisted gravers for the same reason. I would estimate that a good 70% of guns engraved by Americans are handguns.

British and European gun engravers mostly work on shotguns and double rifles that are provided, soft, in the white, from the manufacturer, so more of the engraving can be done with the burin. There are no handguns manufactured in the UK and modern handguns are banned there (except military and some police). Europeans engravers work on a few handguns but they are a minority of their work.

 

[AliAtiyabi]

Roger,

Thank you very much for your kind and full explanation. I found that the only reason that you used chisel and hammer in USA because of the wrought iron but as I mentioned in my previous post the Purey guns are English ones , as I see, and in their site this sentence push me to believe that in England the chisel and hammer are also used:" In the closing decades of the 19th century, there was increasing demand for more ostentatious decoration, notably carved, chiseled and pictorial work." Doesn't is means it is used in England? You can find more information on the following link:


http://www.purdey.com/guns-rifles/engraving/

 

[highveldt]

Ali;

I think that the Purdey description from their website has to mean that there was hammer and chisel work (chasing) done. In the guntrade at the time there were gun craftsmen who were called "action filers" they used files, chisels and hammers along with whatever else they needed to "file up" the action shapes, with the action "fences" being carved by them into ball shapes, cut-away shapes and other shapes as required. When Purdey began offering ornate carved fences (called detonating at Purdey) I doubt that all the action filers had the art skill required to carve leaves, grapes and whatever on the action fences.

In the trades in the UK there were a number of different types of engravers, copper plate engravers, art engravers, gun and rifle engravers and so on. Our discussion here has been the engraving work done by gun engravers.

So, yesterday, I asked Douglas Tate the author of "British Gun Engraving" and "Birmingham Gunmakers" What he learned in his historical research about the engraving techniques employed in the gun workshops of the time of this post discussion. Douglas was also trained and worked as a photo engraver 50 years ago. This is what Douglas' had to say about it:

Here is what Douglas had to say. English engravers appeared to have used Burins (hand pushed) on their engraving. Broadly and generally speaking the only chasing carving work done was on the fences or detonating. In the general, gun engraving shops like Kell's, Sumners, as well as shop like W.C. Scott, Greeners, and so forth, the carving and chasing seems to have been done by "specialists". Douglas went on to say that he had seen one Rigby with deep chasing/carving all over that was probably done for an Indian Maharaja and likely done by the shop of Arthur Haynes (art engraver) in Lisle St. Soho, London.

I see the answer to your question as a result of your reading what Purdey's has written on their website as: Conventional gun engraving (scroll, animals and so forth) work was done by hand pushing. When carving was required, it was done by chasing and it may have been done by outside art engravers.

 

[JJ Roberts]

I would love to get firearm parts already annealed and in the white like our fellow engravers in Britain & Europe,I have to take them apart and then hand polish before engraving,same with firearms to be restored hand polished no buffing must keep all screw & pin holes sharp without dishing them out. J.J.

 

[AliAtiyabi]

Dear Steve,

First of all I do appreciate your full information and efforts to find out on the way of engraving in 1930 s in England. Due to the fact that I myself am curious on the matter I contacted Purdey and they replied me the following and requested for more details:

Dear Mr. Atiyabi

Thank you for your email, and my apologies for the delay in replying to you. Could you please provide further details of the piece that you are inquiring about? If this is a gun, we would need to know the serial number, and from that we should then be able to provide the details you require.

Yours sincerely
Nicholas Harlow

James Purdey & Sons Ltd.
Audley House
57-58 South Audley Street
London, W1K 2ED

www.purdey.com

So in reply I requested him to refer to the post may be enough for him to provide us with enough details.

 

[Crossbolt]

As a follow up to this here an interesting comparison to a similarly aged Boss gun also with high resolution photography available on the same site.
Similar characteristics can be seen on the scrolls although these are a bit cleaner. They have some angularity to the cuts. I'm starting to think that at this magnification what is appearing is not hammer and chisel but a cutting technique resulting from the older hand held or bench wedged "non rotational" vises.

 

[AliAtiyabi]

Hi Jeremy

Thank you for the new pictures and your follow ups which is highly appreciated as I am doing so from Purdey company and waiting for their reply since I thought they could provide us with clear reply.

The lower picture shows a very clear cuts and beautiful one but this question still remains for me on the tools by which they did such beautiful work at that time. Could you provide with more details about the tools?

 

[Roger Bleile]

I have found, by observation and experimentation, that some pre-WWII engravers, who cut steel with a burin, used a slight rocking side-to-side motion with their hand to help control forward movement of the graver. This was usually done with an onglette, sometimes called a point graver or in England a "spit sticker." If you try this, you will note that the graver leaves progression marks that would cause some to believe that the engraving was done with hammer and chisel.

 

[AliAtiyabi]

Hi Friends,

The following is the reply I received from Purdey as he confirmed they used both methods, Burines and chisel and hammer in the 1930 s:

Dear Mr. Atiyabi

As far as I am aware, we did use both methods during that period, but as the images are out of context, and with differing magnification, I cannot state for certain which method has been used on that gun.

Yours sincerely
Nicholas Harlow

James Purdey & Sons Ltd.
Audley House
57-58 South Audley Street
London, W1K 2ED