Brian Marshall
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Must be how they did the gal in the James Bond "Goldfinger" movie? You did say any material...
B.
B.
Last edited:
Question: Polymer frame?
- Thread starter dlilazteca
- Start date
BKJ
Elite Cafe Member
While I don't particularly like the idea of engraving a polymer frame of a Glock, I wonder what will happen to us as a group as guns move more towards the "modern" materials? Will we ONLY engrave "old" guns or just stop engraving altogether. I would think that one has to change somewhat with the times.
A lot of Nimsche's work went south of the border in the South American styles. They loved their guns and loved them to be embellished. So nowadays, Hispanics might want their "Glocks" embellished in the same way their ancestors did but with the modern weapons they like today.
Maybe Nimsche cringed when executing a Mexican style engraving for his clients down south or perhaps he viewed it as work and a market that he could cater to.
Whether we like Glocks or other plastic guns being produced today they are prolific and could produce a niche market for those that want to take a chance on them.
This reminds me of a post that Carlos took some flak for when he engraved the Glock and had some parts gold plated on it.
http://www.engraverscafe.com/showthread.php?17328-Engraved-a-Glock...wait-what&highlight=glock
Once again I didn't particularly care for the gold plating myself but let's not forget that Nimsche silver plated some very ornate Tiffany Colt percussion pistols and at the same time had the cylinder and hammer gold plated. Of course we have become accustomed to viewing his work and those pistols as classics so we don't much think of it as being an aesthetic faux pas.
This begs the question, would a painter not accept a commission to paint a persons portrait because they were ugly and that painter would be scared that it would ruin his reputation as a painter? I think not, as we have seen some portraits of extremely unattractive people in the past. I think that they accepted the work and did the very best job that they could do given the subject matter and some of those portraits hang in museums today.
Perhaps Carlos just found himself a niche market... one that no one else will take a chance on?
A lot of Nimsche's work went south of the border in the South American styles. They loved their guns and loved them to be embellished. So nowadays, Hispanics might want their "Glocks" embellished in the same way their ancestors did but with the modern weapons they like today.
Maybe Nimsche cringed when executing a Mexican style engraving for his clients down south or perhaps he viewed it as work and a market that he could cater to.
Whether we like Glocks or other plastic guns being produced today they are prolific and could produce a niche market for those that want to take a chance on them.
This reminds me of a post that Carlos took some flak for when he engraved the Glock and had some parts gold plated on it.
http://www.engraverscafe.com/showthread.php?17328-Engraved-a-Glock...wait-what&highlight=glock
Once again I didn't particularly care for the gold plating myself but let's not forget that Nimsche silver plated some very ornate Tiffany Colt percussion pistols and at the same time had the cylinder and hammer gold plated. Of course we have become accustomed to viewing his work and those pistols as classics so we don't much think of it as being an aesthetic faux pas.
This begs the question, would a painter not accept a commission to paint a persons portrait because they were ugly and that painter would be scared that it would ruin his reputation as a painter? I think not, as we have seen some portraits of extremely unattractive people in the past. I think that they accepted the work and did the very best job that they could do given the subject matter and some of those portraits hang in museums today.
Perhaps Carlos just found himself a niche market... one that no one else will take a chance on?
Brian Marshall
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
In the end... it is almost always about the money.
As they say "money talks", and to some it whispers very sweetly...
Brian
As they say "money talks", and to some it whispers very sweetly...
Brian
I think Roger has a valid point, and I believe he's cautioning about getting typecast if you get the reputation of engraving garish looking pieces similar to what we see used by drug lords and pimps. At the same time the malls are full of shops and kiosks that sell blingy looking jewelry for the rap crowd and probably make a fortune selling it and laugh all the way to the bank.
Brian Marshall
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
The engraving trade is kinda like Hollywood? I'd have to disagree.
If you mean that as in once you get famous in a film, you almost always get offered the same kinda roles for the rest of your life?
After I made the headpiece for the circus elephant, which they loved - I never got offered more of those jobs...
Probably a good thing - where would I be now? Probably in Florida with the other circus retirees - the elephant still working somewhere.
Only ever did three motorcycles - and that was 30 years ago. (I was hungry at the time) No one but the owners knew. Kept it that way. Never got "branded" by doing it. Didn't want/need more.
So the "stigma" does not always stay with you as far as paying customers are concerned...
They only see what you show them. (only now you may have to try and undo whatever you have let get out onto the Internet)
Your fellow engraving fraternity may be an entirely different matter.
Labeling, categorizing, and putting things and people into slots has long been a human penchant since the beginning of time... even though there are always far more than 50% exceptions to whatever rigid category you try to define - so it doesn't work so well.
Brian
You CAN get known for a specialty - IF that's what you strive for. Personally, I get bored after 10 or 15 years of seeing the same/similar jobs cross my bench.
If you mean that as in once you get famous in a film, you almost always get offered the same kinda roles for the rest of your life?
After I made the headpiece for the circus elephant, which they loved - I never got offered more of those jobs...
Probably a good thing - where would I be now? Probably in Florida with the other circus retirees - the elephant still working somewhere.
Only ever did three motorcycles - and that was 30 years ago. (I was hungry at the time) No one but the owners knew. Kept it that way. Never got "branded" by doing it. Didn't want/need more.
So the "stigma" does not always stay with you as far as paying customers are concerned...
They only see what you show them. (only now you may have to try and undo whatever you have let get out onto the Internet)
Your fellow engraving fraternity may be an entirely different matter.
Labeling, categorizing, and putting things and people into slots has long been a human penchant since the beginning of time... even though there are always far more than 50% exceptions to whatever rigid category you try to define - so it doesn't work so well.
Brian
You CAN get known for a specialty - IF that's what you strive for. Personally, I get bored after 10 or 15 years of seeing the same/similar jobs cross my bench.
Last edited:
Gemsetterchris
Elite Cafe Member
I don't get why engravers think themselves any different from jewellers & worry about their name & reputation?
You don't need to sign your name & if offered paid work you either do it or don't.
No-one need know about it & I doubt anyone cares much.
Seems some think they are on some kind of pedestal
You don't need to sign your name & if offered paid work you either do it or don't.
No-one need know about it & I doubt anyone cares much.
Seems some think they are on some kind of pedestal
Brian Marshall
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Ahh... here we go... this one is gonna catch some flak!
Almost all hand engravers consider themselves "artists" - some few rightfully so, the rest are pretty much indulging in self aggrandizement.
I have never called myself an "artist" and never will.
I firmly believe that that title is given you by your customers and your peers - NOT yourself!
More than half my living comes from doing that nasty "production" engraving that everyone looks down on - the reality of the matter being that it pays 3 times as much as the bespoke work.
And once you have finished "training" the people you are doing the work for, there are NEVER all the complications and time wasters you get with custom work.
My favorite being - "Well, I didn't think it would look like that when it was finished!".
The companies for whom I work, would fire me if I signed my work. They pay me quite well so that has never been a problem.
They would also fire me if I splattered what I do for them all over the Internet.
I am not a peacock. I'm quite content working in the background.
Brian
Other than on this forum, I am the classic example of an introvert.
This forum offers me a venue that is free of stressful direct contact and my participating or not participating is by my choice, not influenced by anyone else.
Almost all hand engravers consider themselves "artists" - some few rightfully so, the rest are pretty much indulging in self aggrandizement.
I have never called myself an "artist" and never will.
I firmly believe that that title is given you by your customers and your peers - NOT yourself!
More than half my living comes from doing that nasty "production" engraving that everyone looks down on - the reality of the matter being that it pays 3 times as much as the bespoke work.
And once you have finished "training" the people you are doing the work for, there are NEVER all the complications and time wasters you get with custom work.
My favorite being - "Well, I didn't think it would look like that when it was finished!".
The companies for whom I work, would fire me if I signed my work. They pay me quite well so that has never been a problem.
They would also fire me if I splattered what I do for them all over the Internet.
I am not a peacock. I'm quite content working in the background.
Brian
Other than on this forum, I am the classic example of an introvert.
This forum offers me a venue that is free of stressful direct contact and my participating or not participating is by my choice, not influenced by anyone else.
Last edited:
zzcutter
Elite Cafe Member
I think we should take this thread out to the range and Shoot It!!
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
At the end of the day, if there is a market in your area for that type of thing........then do it.
After all, a man has to eat, pay the bills, mortgage and all the rest of it. Starving for your art is not the way to go as it makes life miserable for you and your family.
The same rules apply no matter what you do. That is, do the best job you can on the day weather it be on a Purdy or a plastic frame, don't compromise on quality..........and charge accordingly.
Follow those basic rules and you can't go far wrong
Cheers
Andrew
After all, a man has to eat, pay the bills, mortgage and all the rest of it. Starving for your art is not the way to go as it makes life miserable for you and your family.
The same rules apply no matter what you do. That is, do the best job you can on the day weather it be on a Purdy or a plastic frame, don't compromise on quality..........and charge accordingly.
Follow those basic rules and you can't go far wrong
Cheers
Andrew
Haraga.com
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
That's right Andrew. I've always said that I will shovel **** for the right money, and like it.
Brian Marshall
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
And Leonard's tellin' the truth.
He just got done cleaning out a bunch of outhouses for bees...
Brian
He just got done cleaning out a bunch of outhouses for bees...
Brian
Haraga.com
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
And liked it Brian. I never get used to the bee stings.
Roger Bleile
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I don't get why engravers think themselves any different from jewellers & worry about their name & reputation?
You don't need to sign your name & if offered paid work you either do it or don't.
No-one need know about it & I doubt anyone cares much.
Seems some think they are on some kind of pedestal
Chris,
Living in Finland, you may not understand how the world of American gun collectors works. The people who have guns engraved are a relatively small fraternity. If you do a job for one of them that you won't put your name on that will not stop that person from telling everyone he knows who engraved that gun.
You may have noticed that I pay attention to who does what in the world of gun and knife engraving. As FEGA historian, I get inquiries almost every day asking who engraved a particular gun. About half of the time I can tell who did it though there have been quite a few amateurs in years past who did a few guns and left no trace of themselves. If I know who engraved the gun, I will not hide that information from someone asking FEGA who did it. If one wants to do "quick and dirty" work on guns in the US and be anonymous, it can be done by working through a purveyor or gun shop who will keep their source a secret from buyers.
Engraving guns in the US is far different from engraving jewelry. People really want to know who did their gun because if the engraver eventually becomes well known in the trade, the value of the gun will increase. That kind of recognition comes from having your work featured in books and magazines. Guns & Ammo might some day feature a pimped out Glock but you will never see one in any of my books.
Gemsetterchris
Elite Cafe Member
I well understand your point Roger, though as you say the "collector" aspect is a relatively small fraternity (given that there are millions of guns/knives).
I doubt the majority of gun/knife owners are any more aware of FEGA & this "niche" than I am..they just want their item carved.
So if everyone thinks they should only do "collectable" work for their ego`s sake, that leaves a rather lot of money on the table...
I`m aware there are a handful of engravers in a position to scoff at the idea, however 99.9% really are who exactly? .. the local engraver, just the person to go & see for an engraving job?
Sorry Sir/Madam but your *gun* is to crappy for me to risk tarring my name should my dream of reputation come true.
Then pay their bills with a credit card because they turned down paying work.....which doesn`t necessarily have to be done "quick & dirty".
There are "famous artists" in other fields that just do their thing for the right price without worrying.
"Banksy" would be an extreme example of a "collectable artist" that doesn`t worry about his reputation by using a bad canvas for his work.
I doubt the majority of gun/knife owners are any more aware of FEGA & this "niche" than I am..they just want their item carved.
So if everyone thinks they should only do "collectable" work for their ego`s sake, that leaves a rather lot of money on the table...
I`m aware there are a handful of engravers in a position to scoff at the idea, however 99.9% really are who exactly? .. the local engraver, just the person to go & see for an engraving job?
Sorry Sir/Madam but your *gun* is to crappy for me to risk tarring my name should my dream of reputation come true.
Then pay their bills with a credit card because they turned down paying work.....which doesn`t necessarily have to be done "quick & dirty".
There are "famous artists" in other fields that just do their thing for the right price without worrying.
"Banksy" would be an extreme example of a "collectable artist" that doesn`t worry about his reputation by using a bad canvas for his work.
Last edited:
Toad
Elite Cafe Member
Toad
Elite Cafe Member
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Hi Chris
I would have to disagree with you on that one.
People that get engraved guns generally care quite a bit about who engraves them etc etc. There are many levels of collector, not just high end. This has nothing to do with ego or anything else. As an engraver you want to strive for a following as that following will lead to repeat business. It's a whole lot more than just being the local engraving guy down the road..........once you get into that mentality you may as well be the engraving guy at the mall doing dog tags all day.
And it's not just another "engraving job" as people feel pretty connected to their guns. To embellish and personalise them takes on a whole new meaning even at a budget level. There's quite a bit of trust involved. If you really want to see someone light up.......then tell them that Colt that they have just had engraved and are so proud of is now almost worthless because of the rubbish engraving job. We've seen it here on this very forum a couple of times.
There is also a matter of taste. Some people have it and others don't. Nothing wrong with that as that is just the way the world turns. There is no right or wrong of it. Education is the best way to achieve good taste. After all, if we don't educate our clients, or potential clients, about what we do and a tasteful way to get the job done........then who will??
And as much as we don't like to talk about it.........some engravers work, even after a lifetime of endeavour will never reach the giddy height of mediocre. Others will reach the stars in a relatively short period of time. Not everyone is destined to work on Purdey's and some shouldn't even cut rusted steel.
But.........and this is a biggie. You had better sort out early in your career where you want to head with all this. Get a reputation as the cheap guy and you will be busy 24/7 with cheap work and fussy clients. Get a reputation as the guy that will do anything and you are in for a world of grief. Get a reputation as the crap guy and you will get a lot of crappy work. Aim high or aim low. You will generally hit what you are aiming at.
Roger is simply pointing to the higher path. Nothing wrong with aiming high.
Hey, for all we know Carlos could become the go to guy for polymer frames. End up inventing a mould injection system for engraved polymer patterns that sell in the millions. Employ 1000 people in a factory, make a squillion dollars and end up being businessman of the year on the cover of Time magazine.........I certainly hope so
Cheers
Andrew
I would have to disagree with you on that one.
People that get engraved guns generally care quite a bit about who engraves them etc etc. There are many levels of collector, not just high end. This has nothing to do with ego or anything else. As an engraver you want to strive for a following as that following will lead to repeat business. It's a whole lot more than just being the local engraving guy down the road..........once you get into that mentality you may as well be the engraving guy at the mall doing dog tags all day.
And it's not just another "engraving job" as people feel pretty connected to their guns. To embellish and personalise them takes on a whole new meaning even at a budget level. There's quite a bit of trust involved. If you really want to see someone light up.......then tell them that Colt that they have just had engraved and are so proud of is now almost worthless because of the rubbish engraving job. We've seen it here on this very forum a couple of times.
There is also a matter of taste. Some people have it and others don't. Nothing wrong with that as that is just the way the world turns. There is no right or wrong of it. Education is the best way to achieve good taste. After all, if we don't educate our clients, or potential clients, about what we do and a tasteful way to get the job done........then who will??
And as much as we don't like to talk about it.........some engravers work, even after a lifetime of endeavour will never reach the giddy height of mediocre. Others will reach the stars in a relatively short period of time. Not everyone is destined to work on Purdey's and some shouldn't even cut rusted steel.
But.........and this is a biggie. You had better sort out early in your career where you want to head with all this. Get a reputation as the cheap guy and you will be busy 24/7 with cheap work and fussy clients. Get a reputation as the guy that will do anything and you are in for a world of grief. Get a reputation as the crap guy and you will get a lot of crappy work. Aim high or aim low. You will generally hit what you are aiming at.
Roger is simply pointing to the higher path. Nothing wrong with aiming high.
Hey, for all we know Carlos could become the go to guy for polymer frames. End up inventing a mould injection system for engraved polymer patterns that sell in the millions. Employ 1000 people in a factory, make a squillion dollars and end up being businessman of the year on the cover of Time magazine.........I certainly hope so
Cheers
Andrew
Last edited:
Gemsetterchris
Elite Cafe Member
Wonder what would happen if Mr Coggan or someone of high esteem was to post a pic of a recent "lipstick on a pig" job :thinking:
That would stir the pot abit!
I agree & understand alot of what`s been said, but then again I don`t think things have to be quite so black & white.
I`m sure customers go looking for good work so give it to them, not everyone marries a glamour model do they? try teaching them taste.
That would stir the pot abit!
I agree & understand alot of what`s been said, but then again I don`t think things have to be quite so black & white.
I`m sure customers go looking for good work so give it to them, not everyone marries a glamour model do they? try teaching them taste.
Last edited:
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
I have it from a very reliable source that Phil has never put lipstick on a pig. A cow, a sheep and a frozen chicken maybe.............But never a pig
Gemsetterchris
Elite Cafe Member
Was asked to set emeralds & rubies into a nasty looking silver ring one time..had a bucket next to my bench as it made my stomach churn looking at it.
Paid well, though I was abit worried about the customers mental wellness.
He happened to be an airline pilot.....
Guiding & educating from a technical point is fine, but you can`t teach them what to like.
Paid well, though I was abit worried about the customers mental wellness.
He happened to be an airline pilot.....
Guiding & educating from a technical point is fine, but you can`t teach them what to like.
Last edited:
Sponsors
