Question: stainless knife handle question

[J.Powell]

Can anyone tell me what kind of stainless this handle has and or the best graver material to handle it? Ive tried glennsteel (dulls tip in 5 seconds) grs cobalt round graver , c-max (lasts about 30 seconds and breaks tip) Lindsay carbalt (chips edge in about 5 seconds) and Lindsay m42 ( chips tip in about 10 seconds). I am having zero luck here, trying to get done for xmas gift and cant figure it out. all the gravers seems to just skip across the surface, no matter what angle I approach. most gravers were 120 or closely modified. please forgive my "newnest" lol, this is my first project.

 

[Brian Marshall]

Have you tried steepening the face angle to 50 degrees? Maybe 55? Some even go to 60...

Have you tried "dubbing" the point?

Are you using a lubricant?


Brian

Are you holding your mouth rignt as you cut? (quote from Victor Vasquez)

 

[J.Powell]

Brian, I have not tried any of those. what is "dubbing" ? and why use a lubricant? and what kind of lubricant? thank you.

 

[GTJC460]

This is the biggest reason the dual angle sharpener is my sharpening fixture of choice. The best suggestion is to try the glensteel, m42, cmax and carbalt gravers in 120' format. Then keep making the face steeper and steeper till you find something that holds up longer than 5 seconds!

I had a similar problem when flare cutting a stainless colt 1911 slide. I kept fiddling with the geometry till I found something that worked.

My tip of the day is don't really worry about various carbide gravers. They tend to chip big shards off the tip which makes resharpening take extra long. Stick with various forms of HSS blanks. They don't chip off in big shards like the carbide gravers tend to do.

 

[GTJC460]

Dubbing is where you polish a very small facet on the face/point at an exteme angle of 75' or more. This is a micro facet you form by stroking the face across a ceramic lap by hand 2-4 swipes. It is just a very tiny facet.

 

[J.Powell]

thanks for the tips (no pun intended) lol . I will try later when I get to my bench.

 

[Brian Marshall]

Most use Tap Magic for a lubricant. It helps some. In some metals, like aluminum (or for bright cutting soft metals) - it helps a LOT!

Dubbing is very slightly blunting your point with a tiny facet. It tends to strengthen the point in cases where it seems too fragile and constantly chips or breaks.


Brian

 

[thughes]

J,
I had the same problem with those. I tapped a wooden hammer handle wedge in between the scales before setting the whole thing in the gray stuff. It's a PITA having the blade open, but cutting down on the vibration seemed to help, at least for me.

Todd

 

[sanch]

That looks like a buck nobleman, 440ss Bladen clue about handle most likely 304ss as it is cheaper than others.that is a Chinese made knife.

 

[Jan Hendrik]

Like others have said. Dubbing the point of the graver will help a lot!

 

[Marrinan]

I will add: Some metals are just not worth the aggravation of engraving. Some metals are to hard to fool with. Leave them to the diamond drag, rotary, or acid etch folks and go on. Life is way to short. Especially a knife someone will loose anyway -Fred

 

[Dani Girl]

I cut one of those when I was fairly new. It's pretty hard stuff... but go with the harder gravers. They'll chip... but just focus on your tool control to reduce that... and dub the points. I've also heard that finishing them fairly coarse like 1500 or less will cause less chipping if you'd believe it. Try going a little more shallow on hard metals... don't force the tool... when it doesn't want to move don't push harder just drop your hand a little a nd a little until it starts moving by itself.

I haven't tried it but folk rave about grs c'max stuff.

Please post pic when you finish it we'd all love to see.

 

[J.Powell]

Well folks, thank you all for the input. It is much appreciated!!! I am not generally a quitter, however, for the sake of sanity, I've thrown in the towel! After trying all the suggestions here (dub lasted 10 sec on hss) I can say now that one of the best ways to learn how to use a dual angle sharpening fixture is to try to engrave some incredibly hard SS. I am a pro with that fixture now! LOL , also, I certainly appreciate the power hone I got to use at the GRS training center (is it too late to ask Santa for one?) I can definitely say to others like myself, just starting out, STAY AWAY FROM HARD METALS at first. I was seriously doubting my decision to try to learn this art. I had to resort to carving up some practice plates to make sure it wasn't user error!! wheeewwww,..still got it! So, what to do with a scratched up stainless knife??? I have some nice exotic wood scales I could epoxy to it! Anyone wanna buy 4 blank knives? lol... Anyhow,..thanks again to all, sorry no pics at this point.

 

[grumpyphil]

Just for the hellovit...take the knife you already cut and hit the handle with a torch. Just heat it up good and proper not cherry or even orange and let it cool off by itself. Give it a shot and see what happens.

 

[Jan Hendrik]

I am still new at engraving myself. And I mostly engrave hard stainless steels like 303, 316,416. I have also engraved hardened N690 (58 Rockwell hardness) stainless blade material. It just takes time and practise. Best to start with mild steel practise plates in the beginning then gradually progress from there. Sometimes the tendency is to try and cut too deep in the beginning. This breaks points easily!

 

[sam]

My pain threshold isn't high enough to engrave something so stubborn, and I can't do my best work in it anyway. I approach commercially made stainless steel items very cautiously, assuming most of them fall into miserably hard category. When I was younger and more fearless I'd attempt anything, sometimes just to prove it could be engraved. The older and slightly wiser (and more cowardly) Sam steers clear of things that cause constant broken points and frustration and risk. I really want to produce my best work when I start a job, and when things stand in the way of that I'm far less likely to do it.

Just one engraver's opinion. Not saying anyone or everyone else should do the same.

 

[Robert Morales]

Glad I saw this, I have one of those and had planned on engraving it, NOT NOW! Thanks

 

[sam]

This also reminds me of the time one of my students came back from lunch with a $10 Winchester knife from Walmart. It had stainless steel bolsters and I just knew it would be impossibly hard to engrave. Low and behold the stuff cut like butter. The moral of the story is you won't know until you take a graver to it.

 

[dlilazteca]

Engraved that same one myself have not finished it, but it on the backburner. tapmagic, 105, with increased face angle, dont make the tip to small so it gives it strength.and yes dub.

Saludos,
Carlos

 

[MICHAEL]

J, everyone who has responded has had a helpful opinion that is based on their experience. Now, I'm going to give you mine. I say cut it.
Here's why I think so. When I first started cutting Italian cap / ball pistols, I thought I was doing pretty good and seeing improvement. Then I got hold of a SS Uberti smokeless (modern) pistol. When the point (of my carbide graver) wasn't shattering, it seemed to tear the material. This metal also felt gummy in areas. Back strap and ejector rod housing where the worst to cut. I was using NGraver carbide blanks which I thought where the greatest thing since sliced bread, as compared to HSS I was using before. But these where not just chipping, they were shattering / fracturing. I ended up having to order all the wheels GRS offered, aside from the cast iron lap, to save time sharpening a 1/4- 1/2 inch off my shattered gravers. I also ordered the C-max carbide gravers and now use them for all hard material. I use a 60 degree face with 25 degree heels, because my Mentor Jerry Harper has found this to hold a point for him the best, and he can get to all areas of a single action Colt without changing tool geometries. When I played around with dubbing the point, :banana: Wallah!
While I wasn't cutting fast, I was cutting. I did not time it, but, it seemed like I got to where I would frequently check my point with (loupe / opti-visor), if I noticed the light catching where the point meets face / heels, I would re-sharpen on a 600 grit wheel / dub the point on a fine to medium India stone, by gently pulling each heel across stone toward me as I raised my elbow. Then do the same for the face. Think of it as breaking the point (not actually breaking, just dulling, or dubbing). If your point is too sharp it easily breaks on hard stuff. I dub on everything I cut except for bright cutting and shading on soft stuff. I also don't use flats or punch dot tools on really hard stuff. Ruined 6 each #2 punch dot tools trying to put a couple of punch dots on a Ruger new Vaquero hammer.
The point is, the pistol was mine, I could stop at any time, even thought about chucking it in the river. I don't remember this, but a friend of mine said I even thought about stopping engraving, because I was so frustrated.!
But, watching all those old westerns paid off, and in the immortal words of Chief Dan George, "I endeavored to persevere".:clapping: Since that first SS pistol, I've done 5 more. Either I got lucky and got better SS in each proceeding gun or I got better. I like to think the latter happened. I learned more about sharpening my graver from that
D#@N gun than from everything else I cut before it.
Some things about SS I think it's good to know about. I use 90 degree graver and don't roll it as much as softer steels. There is less of a window in the sweet spot. I don't know if anyone has coined this term for engraving yet or not, but to me the sweet spot is the angle you hold your graver, and it will cut. When you get out of this sweet spot, you slip or you bog down and possibly break off your point.
Before I would ever engrave someone's SS project (that you know won't cut well), I would let them know it will not be your best work, due to the type of material your cutting / try to steer them to something better suited to engraving. With that being said I know there are people out there that are willing to pay for someone to scratch up there prized SS Ruger Vaquero's. It takes me 2-3 times longer to cut these than a say a firearm of softer material. You then have to ask yourself, do I want to charge someone that much /have people look at my work, who do not understand the difficulties I face and don't care. They are just seeing a crappy cut gun that cost a small fortune to have engraved. Or you can learn from it and lock it up in the safe or chuck it in the river. The next SS pistol I cut, I will try dubbing the point even more. A machinist friend was teaching me how to shape / sharpen my lathe tools and I was surprised when he drove the point straight into the diamond wheel (more like kissed but you get the point). I need to see what grit he was using first.
J, engraving is like most things in life that people care about. There will be highs:biggrin: / lows. I'm finding out for myself, don't let the highs get to your head too much / don't let the lows get you down to the point that you stop.
Everything I do, has to do with firearms (my 1st love). When I need a break from engraving I work on guns or something related to them, all the while thinking on how to be a better firearms engraver. Just don't let SS knife get you down too much. Learn from it. It will build character and it will make you a better engraver. Then you can decide if you ever want to do another one or not. Just my 2 cents, which is actually worth nuthin!
Just so you know, I've only been engraving for 5 years, so you can never go wrong by listening to engravers like Sam who have been there, done that, forgot about it, and learned it again. Hope this helps you, and remember, we've all been where you're at, and we're still here. We'll be here when you need us. Thanks to the Benevolent Dictator Sam and his free Web site.
Hope this helps!