The painful point

[joseph engraver]

The Painful Point,
Being old and living in what are called the golden years is a neat deal. I can sit in the shade and wonder about any thing my heart desires. I have engraved, sculpted, overlaid and inlayed most of the common animals that are in demand by clients. Now I paint. No masterpieces, just simple small canvases. I have no idea if what I am doing is technically right or wrong. These are not my paintings. They are what a power beyond my understanding commands me to paint. After working in the black to white spectrum and COPYING every feather and hair, painting is a great relief.
Many times when I was in front of my work, at the engraving vise, I wished that I could make the lake green or the river blue. As years flew by, I decided that one day I wanted to paint things that do not exist. It was while peacefully following the directions that came to my mind while painting that I thought about the pain I went through learning to work with the hammer and chisel.
What discomfort I felt was zipp compared to what millions have gone through just to exist. Which brings me to the painful point, Do you possibly think that any artisan has not been frustrated, cheated, disappointed, ridiculed by their critics?
What’s the big deal? Of course they did, and that pain pushed them forward. I got in some hard times while studying in Italy. It was my own fault, I was not prepared for the complications of living in a foreign Country, and that made it difficult, I have experienced my share of pain but it was never brought on by my tools. So if you have this curious desire to try working with hand tools they will bring you no pain, only a deep satisfaction,
January 23, 1982 (From my journal) “Engraving school is wonderful. Six hours of design and drawing lessons a week. Hours and hours of cutting smaller and smaller circles on practice plates, everyone is nice to me. I know with perspiration, perseverance, and patience I will master this art of engraving. Loneliness and cold are my biggest enemies. Somehow, they seem to go hand in hand. Maybe someday it will all be worthwhile. Look after me Lordâ€￾

 

[Dave London]

Joseph
Thank you for your insite and contributions to the art world. Here it comes I do differ as that hand tools will not cause pain, I grew up as the son of a plumber and have worked with hand tools for most of my life. I remember when Dad got a Skill rotohammer early 50's I was in heaven no longer did I have to drill holes in concrete with a star drill and a single jack. This was all day some times.Then as a A&P mech installing and removing a million screws by hand, then came battery powered reversable drills heaven again. I guess you get the drift, so after 45 plus years working with hand tools. I got Carpal Tunnel Syndrome (RMS)and pain is the word along with almost being disabled a fearfull time for some one who loves work with thier hands. Surgery and rehab and better not cured still cant shoot my 45 with out tingleing for days.
So when I decided one day to learn to engrave about 5 yrs ago, I bought a chasing hammer and die sinker chisles and got at it. Soon found out two things one the pleasure was not worth the pain and I could learn a new trade for fun, yes I said trade as I do not consider myself a artist more a craftmans.Useing air assisted tools the learning curve is much shorter and no pain. Now I understand that everyone will not get RMS and I hope no one does, but the new tools will eliminate or greatly reduce the chance of getting RMS.Progress c ant stop it .I believe that the great masters would use any tool that helped or made the work easier.
Dave

 

[Ron Smith]

The pain was never so much in the use of the tools as the struggle to survive in an ignorant culture. Of course i cannot blame the culture for my choices, but having to face ignorance everyday and being bartered down by people making far more money than yourself. The pain was more in the struggle and sacrifice to do without things that other people could easily afford. I have always lived at a very low level of prosperity and am proud of the fact that I have endured it in spite of those forces. Thank god it is not so much that way these days, but I am sure many of you have come face to face with that ignorance I am talking about. And the pain i am talking about was not physical so much as the insecurity of not knowing whether we were going to have to give it up for a "normal" life, if you know what I mean. The giving up of my own identy to conform to the way everyone else does it. The adherance to my principals which economical pressures threatened to destroy. Quantity over quality in other words.

It is easy to be a champion when you are amply rewarded for your efforts. Not so easy when you have to sacrifice you own monetary welfare to pursue your passion by yourself with little or no help. I am not complaining, just trying to explain how it was. I wouldn't trade my life for a millionaire's. I am far richer for what I have lived than those who might have never had the chance to love this art. Money has never been my motive for what I do, but of course that is the probem.

But now dave, I can relate to what you say, as I too am much older and cannot keep the pace lf my younger days. Pain has become physical and that is a hard price to pay for loving something so much. I find the hours reuired to do this work difficult to maintain and that is exactly one of the reasons I have no quarrel with modern techniques. i think you are right about the "great masters" as most of them do use the tools that make life easier........Not a thing wrong with that......Rock on, and hang in there Dave..........Ron s

 

[Dave London]

Ron & Joseph
Gentlemen you have made your mark on the world of art and engraving,you will be remembered for your great works of art and I admire your spirit and endurance. Thank You Dave

 

[Rick Eaton]

Joseph,
Thank you for your post I see alot of wisdom in it. It is for the love of the art of engraving that I do it and I believe thats why most of us engrave. I could make more money doing other things but, engraving gives a freedom to create, to be your own boss, and to meet some interesting people. I thank God every day for the gifts that He has given me and this desire to do this for a living. There are times that we stuggle to put bread on the table, but those times just make the abundant times more sweet and give the drive to push on to do the next project. Engraving for a living can be a great stuggle but, I wouldn't trade it for anything else.
All the best
Rick

 

[joseph engraver]

Amen,you got the point

 

[Mike Cirelli]

There is much wisdom on this thread. The love an artisan puts into his work is only known and felt by artisan's. I agree with Ron and Joseph. My thoughts on modern tools are, they can most certainly keep you from being crippled at a young age. Years of being hunch over your work sure takes a toll on the body. The modern schools are great and definitely accelerates leaner the many different crafts. But the one thing I see that's missing in all the schools and just by the words here it's a big one. An Artisan that puts his heart and soul into his work should be compensated fairly. This was not the case years ago and still is today. Many go to classes and schools to learn an art, and they're taught well (the art). They're not taught how to sell their skill. I have been at a jewelry bench for over 27 years I'm not a billionaire never will be two hands and two eyes can only do so much. I make a good living with the ups and downs and dealing with the ignorant culture as mentioned. I don't understand why any school that puts such great efforts into teaching an art wouldn't put the same effort toward teaching financial success along with the skill. I'm not talking how to price a masterpiece. But a solid stepping stone to basics pricing. I'm not pointing to any school in particular because it seems none of them put forth that effort. With a good solid knowledge in basic pricing it would help not only the individual but the whole industry.
Just my rambling thoughts.

 

[Dave London]

Hi Mike
Yes I agree that artists (not me) are not paid in accordance with thier skills. Those that chose to pursue art for the most part can make a living but will not get rich by any stretch. Now we have examples of those who have become rich Annie Lebiwitz ( cant spell her name) made it by taking photos.I can think of others and most were very good at selling them selves.
Fair that depends on where you sit or stand. Bill Gates has made billions, why he was a visionary, Michael Jorden man can that guy jump, Tiger Woods what a swing, examples are endless. The Old great masters you pick the type of art had rich folks who supported them and thier work. Today the New Masters are paid by the rich folks for thier work does this sound familiar. Is this fair that is the question,I don't know as I am a dumb old plumber and did not think that I was ever paid enough to protect the public health.
So I guess my point is that the more things change the more they stay the same. Dave

 

[Jim Sackett]

How do you do all, this is my first post in my return to this site. I related so much to what all of you said that I just have to put in my 2 cents worth.

I got into the trade of engraving by answering an add in the paper back in 1959. I worked as an apprentice in an engraved stationery house. Making plates for engraved business cards and wedding invitations. After 6 years I moved to a trophy and jewelry house. In 4 years I was out on my own. And did quite well for a while. I made a number of business mistakes, priceing was one of them. I didn't have much business savy, but I did have a family to support and eventully went back to work for some one else in a factory. The pay was better but work was very hard and unsatisfying.

I wound up in the sign painting field for a number of years. This was enjoyable and satisfied my creativness. Some bad lungs finely caused me to go on disability at the age of 52. After 10 years of retirement I started to get back into engraving. It's like I found an old friend, it getts me up in the morning and puts me to bed at night. While sleeping I dream of my old co-engravers, in Chicago. This time around I can engrave what I want when I want and how I want. I am learning a lot from this board.

Thank you all for being here
Jim Sackett

 

[Sam]

Hi Jim. You have my respect. I really admire stationery engravers, and I've often said that sign painters are some of the best ar**** around, but are seldom recognized as such. Thanks for your post. / ~Sam

 

[alfrisillo]

Your book

Joseph,
I am not much of a reader outside of technical material. However, after reading a few of your selected pieces on the Engravers Cafe, I bought your book. Not only that, but I read it is one sitting!! Not bad for a guy who used to paraphrase articles from Outdoor Life for 5th grade book reports.
I thorougly enjoyed reading the ups and downs you experienced.
Enjoy life. We only go around once, I think.
alf

 

[Ron Smith]

Mike, I think for the past number of years, engraving has been approached from an artistic level rather than an occupational level. This being the case, most were just interested in mostly the tools and how to use them. This has dominated the motives of the beginning practitioners. I have always seen the need , which you are right Mike, there needs to be some information on running an engraving business and how to get enough work to stay busy and get an income, pricing, protocol, etc. That is a whole different approach.
There aren't many "engraving shops" any more except for machine engraving. You almost have to be in the invironment of a shop to learn those ropes, but as some engravers make attempts to do this as an occupation, they need pertinent information. For instance, if I were to go back into business, I find the tools that the modern engravers use require a lot of your time adjusting etc. and they even get in the way for the all around engraver, where as these "luxury items" would slow down your production and you would have to charge prices to compensate for the slow down. A shop has to be lean and mean so to speak, so speed becomes an intregal part of your wage earning ability. You are competing with mass production mentality and the general public is totally ignorant of what it takes for you to do your work time and effort wise and there-in lies the problem. It is that ignorance I was tlking about on another thread and when you are dealing in volume it has to do with numbers (the ignorant masses). They don't have a clue. To do engraving as a business I encourage beginners to become involved with all phases. Lettering, monogramming, Logos, etc. there is pretty good money in lettering if you are good and fast at it. It is pretty narrow in just the ornamental arena, unless you work for a gun manufacterer. I could blather on and on about this, but hope this gets you some insight into the "trade aspects" of engraving.........Most modern engravers coming into the trade in recent years are retired from some good job, recieving all the benifits from that, and so can pursue engraving as a sideline and do pretty well with it because they don't really need the income. That is a perfect perspective to work from and a definate advantage, but because of the nature of hand crafted items you almost have to have something else going at the same time (sales or something) because what you cannot do in volume compared to mass production, you can make up for in other ways that will allow you the ability to pursue your passion.........Ron S

 

[Mike Cirelli]

Ron
I think a lot of the blame falls on the Jeweler or Engraver why the public is so ignorant in what has to be done when doing a particular job. I'll explain. Let’s say you call the kitchen installer or plumber or contractor to do some work for you. They sit down and go over every little thing they have to do. When they're done talking you realize it's not so easy and he or she must really know what has to be done. On the other hand when a customer brings in a piece to be engraved or jewelry to be made or repaired most are simply told; that's not a problem it'll be done in a couple of weeks or so. No explanation of what has to be done or anything, that's where the problem lies. For all the customer knows is all you have to do is stick it in a box and it will come out the other end done. When I tell the customer the difficulty of a certain job and explain to them what has to be done it almost doesn’t matter what the cost is. When they pick it up they feel they are getting good quality and value for they're money. That makes them happy and they return and they tell others and so on.
I do like the modern tools though Ron it diffidently speeds up and gives more precision especially when I'm setting stones. But I still find myself raising prong, setting beads and other tasks by hand. Some things a machine just can't do.
Mike

 

[Dave P]

I got into the jewelry business as an adjunct to engraving. It was about the only thing I could get into that would allow me at least a little opportunity to engrave. I tried to engrave for a living but found that it was virtually impossible. As Ron has pointed out, most people are ignorant of what is involved. I don't know how many times I heard "You want how much??? I can get that done at the mall for $10!!!" I then would spend half an hour explaining that Things Remembered uses a machine and it's a totally different thing. About 30% would leave their piece for me to hand engrave, almost all of those returning at some point to have something else engraved.

It is my observation that in recent years people are returning to an appreciation of the finer arts, engraving included. The same phenomenon is occuring in the watch business. Seiko and Casio almost destroyed the luxury watch industry, and almost certainly ran almost all of the watchmakers out of business with throw away watches, just as the while-you-wait machine engravers did away with the need for fine hand engraving. I have seen a tremendous increase in the desire for hand engraving in the last four or five years, although it's still not enough to really make a living at unless you do a lot of it and you are very fast. I tried that, and for me it really takes the fun out of it.

Mike metioned that many people don't understand what's involved in jewelry making, and that to most people it seems that you put a bar of gold in one end and a ring pops out the other. That is definitely our fault. I spend more time showing people what I do than I spend actually doing it, it seems sometimes. I have geared my entire business towards helping people understand what goes into fine jewelry and thereby fostering an appreciation of fine craftsmanship. I try to keep my shop spotless at all times so I can give clients a tour and demonstration. I let them blow holes or trace their name on steel plates with the laser. I encourage them to help with the design process. I invite my clients to come and help me cast their pieces or watch me engrave or set stones. I then send them photos of them "helping" with the Thank You notes I send. If you want your clients to develop an appreciation of the skills involved in casting, let them light your casting torch. That's always good for a laugh or two.

I see the same thing in many posts by engravers on this forum. A lot of the tutorials are not only oriented towards helping us less skilled engravers, but towards educating the general population about fine craftsmanship and what it means to be a master. In other words, they are a kind of sales tool. I love it, and think it is a wonderful way of helping our prospective clients come to appreciate what it is we do, and how much dedication and passion it takes to become one of the best. I am always pulling up stuff off of this forum and others to show my customers, and e-mailing links to them. They are almost always totally enthralled. (Barry, your Perazzi is a big hit!)

If our clients don't have an understanding of what we do, it is our responsiblity to show them, not the History Channel's or CNN's, or Zale's or anyone else's. If you can show someone the difference between commercial quality and what you do, and make them as passionate as you are about it, they will spend their hard-earned money to buy your work, and not only that, but they show it off and educate their friends, and send them to you as well. It's simple word of mouth advertising, and it works. It's the only form of advertising that does work in our chosen field. The downside (if you can call it that) is that you must be genuinely passionate about what you do, you must be totally honest in all of your business dealings, and first and foremost, you must be completely dedicated to achieving the finest craftsmanship humanly possible. From what I've seen from the people that participate in this forum and the Lindsay forum, that's not even an issue.

I've stopped complaining about people not understanding or appreciating what I do. I've come to realize that it is my responsiblity to educate them. When they leave my store, even if they have not have bought anything from me, the next jewelry store they go into is gonna have their hands full. They almost always eventually make it back, and when they do, it's for good.

Try it. It works.

Dave

 

[Ron Smith]

Right on Dave, ride on!!!!!!!!!!1 Ron S