To educate or not to educate?

[pilkguns]

I am not here to fall out with anyone. I have much better things to do with my time than spend many hours at the keyboard trying to justifiy an opinion which has been questioned in such a manner. As I say, my goal is to educate and if it means one person listens and it improves their work then I've attained this goal.

I don't know about the rest of you, but it doesn't feel very nice when some people appear to be gunning for you when all you're trying to do is help novice engravers who are plainly seeking guidance. That is not to say lively discussion and debate aren't to be encouraged, it can be fun and educational too. It's just that the one person says black, the other white gets boring and far from educating a novice can just lead to confussion.

Marcus, I am in agreement. Leaving Alaska today so this is short, was at Denali today… wonderful sights to see….. last night was clear and finally could see the Northern lights . F!a!n!t!a!s!t!i!c!

But yes, there are fundamentals to engraving, rules if you will. Anybody who says other is either a fool, a rank beginner , extremely misguided, or someone who is trying to deliberately trying to hold others back from growing and excelling in the art. I’m sorry but thats it from my viewpoint. Yes, you can break the rules….. somewhat….once you know them. Before you know them and abide by them, breaking of the rules looks like what it is… similar to a child’s fingerpainting…. Interesting and an effort that should be encouraged for a growth in the interest of the art, but not considered worthy of adoration or excessive praise.

Basic fundamental is….. something simple….. straight lines. Straight is straight……. Can’t have any zig-zags or it’s another kind of line. If a border is not straight…. Everybody knows it…lay a ruler against, it is not straight. No question.

Next level? Is the scroll round? What is round?? Not having straight lines in the middle of a curved line? I think so. It’s a rule. Get over it. Should scrolls flow in the proper direction? Yes its rule. Doing otherwise shows poor design knowledge or lack of attention to detail. Beyond that, there are some variations on a theme, but balance and symmetry issues start to kick in for the overall pattern.

Gotta run. Later
Scott

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Well.........Thanks guys and girls for your responses and kind words, not just for myself but for all the experienced engravers who give advice and constructive criticism to those who are seeking to further their knowledge of engraving.

This morning, an experience I had several years ago sprung to mind and can be likened to this subject. I used to go to a folk music festival which had been held for many years in the town in which I lived. However, the musical directorship of the festival changed hands and the person who took over had no real interest in folk music, his passion was jazz. The festival gradually changed over from folk to jazz which in my view was a pity because it had a huge following in the folk world.

During the transition period they mixed the festival, which didn't really work but lead to some interesting experiences. In years past music would continue into the small hours in a small intimate venue and the music director, this particular year, programmed a late night jazz session. Great, I thought! I and quite a few other folkies who were willing to give it a go, even though jazz wasn't really our thing, crammed ourselves into this small underground bar. A couple of musicians turned up and started tooting away, and a few minutes later a few more turned up and also started tootling too. Now I say "tooting and tootling" because that's exactly what it was....no rhythm, and no particular meter or tempo. In fact we all thought they were tuning up! Anyway, this went on for several minutes; everyone tooting away and doing their own thing. Then it stopped and the musicians looked at the audience who just sat there! Then they upped and started again!

Now, during these festivals quite a lot of beer passes the lips and to one chap, who'd had several pints of said amber fluid, stood up after about 20 minutes and squared up to the guy who seemed to be leading the very unmusical cacophony and said "Oi mate! when are you going to start then?" There was a sharp intake of breath from the 3 or 4 jazz afficianados in the audience and an icy glare from the musicians. The innebriated chap sat down and we all expected some Stephan Grapelly and Jango Rhinehartesque tunes to start but no.....they just kept tootototing away each doing their own thing with no chord structure or particular rhythm. The drunk chap stood up again "Don't you know any tunes then?" he questioned and they just carried on ignoring him "you know what? You're all rubishsshhhhh you are!" and he upped and left along with 20 or 30 others on mass....He'd expressed what we'd all been to polite to say individually.

Now what happened wasn't necessarilly the fault of the jazz musicians or those that like what we found out was call 'freeform jazz' (or something like that). They were obviously very accomplished musicians who had decided to break all the 'rules'. Now that is fine if you know how to appreciated it or have been educated into the jazz world, but to us mere mortals used to tunes and songs it sounded horrible! This prooved that breaking certain rules in music will leave the normal person cold.

Now the art we produce is quite conservative at the moment and it's going through a certain renaisance in that a craft which was very small and practised by a few people (relatively speaking), is now starting to flower and blossom once more as more and more people take up a graver. If those of us who have engraved for many years can pass on some of our experience and teach the fundementals of good design, aesthetics and beauty to those who wish to learn then we will be passing this on to the world at large. In turn our clients will also become more educated about what constitutes good and bad engravingand will no longer be content to accept the poor or mediocre. They will want the best because everyone will be turning out high class work! In turn this will draw younger people into engraving and we will (I can almost guarantee it) see stuff that we will never have dreamed of before; some will seem downright wierd but we must expect to see some changes in the future.

But like everthing else in life, you have to know and learn the rules of something first, in order to be able to truly appreciate it. It's like going to a football game and understanding nothing about what's going on, yes you get swept up in the spectacle but without knowing the rules you can't really appreciate the game.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Ed, you can avoid throwing up a rough edge by making certain that your tools are sharp and set up in such a way that it feels as if you are cutting butter. At the end of the cut, depending on what tool you are using, you must either 'pop' the bur out or scoop it out. My father used to say "You should be able to take a lady's stocking and rub it over you work and you should'nt feel it catching or snagging in any way." If there is any roughness take a bit of copper or a bronze coin and gently rub it over the work. Of course this only applies to hard metals such as steel. Some silver and other metals are very soft and will, if you're not careful, get a rough edge. To avoid this a) use a relief grind (nb, this was around long before the Patent Point but if you find SL's grind works then use it) to avoid heel drag and, b) polish the heel and face of the graver.

 

[Ray Cover]

On the issue of "rules"

In the art world we use the "principles and elements of design". They are just that, "elements "or the parts (Line, shape, form, value, color, space, etc) and "Principles" or the guidlines whith which the parts are assembled ( Balance, rhythm, contrast, emphasis, unity, proportion, etc). Take any good quality design class at any univeristy or college and you will find that the goal of the artist/designer is to become a master at manipulating these priciples and elements.

The goal is to make the "P&E of D" our servant not for us to become so bound up in the structures of these principles that we beome their servant. In other words, we need to learn them well enough that we control them rather than ignorantly letting them control us.

This may be arguing semantics a bit here but "rules" and "principles" are different.

The artsit uses principles as a guidline but can twist and distort them to manipulate a desired effect in his artwork. For example, I have seen aestheticly pleasing artwork in which the balance was intentionally scewed in order to draw a stonger attention to a primary figure in the work. Was the work unbalanced? Technically, yes but it still worked visually.

Why did it work? It worked because it was done intentionally with forthought to achieve a desired effect. The artist know enough about the P&E of D to control the effect. However, this does not mean that a hap hazard disregard for the principle of balance is going to produce a good visual effect in artwork. In general an artist needs to keep to the principle of balance until he has enough mastery to control the effects of tweeking it.

"Rules" in artwork are generally set ot keep a determined style or "school" of design. For example, if we are given the task of engraivng English scroll, we have to abide by certain predetermined standards and procedures in both design and exicution or we do not have English scroll. There are certain "rules" that make it English scroll

If asked if we all have to follow the rules of predetermined styles in engraving rather than going out and creating our own styles. I would say NO! However, that does not mean it is wrong to do a little English scroll no and then..... just that we should be able to go beyond what has already been done by others.

If ask whether we should be bound by the Principles of aesthetic design. I would say YES! at least until we are good enough to manipulate them to our own desired outcome.

Ray

 

[KSnyder]

Hello everybody, I'll start out by saying I enjoy this forum very much and have learned lotssss of tips, ideas, styles etc. in my short time here.
The following is only my opinion & not meant to belittle or critique anyones work.
Here is another aspect of the engraving work, the art and drawing & what they used to call aptitude. In my opinion not everyone can draw even with good teaching, it just isnt in there. Can they maybe be passable on their drawings, yes, but they cant quite make it look like they want. This dont mean they dont have talent and cant engrave but drawing will always be a struggle.
I used to work in a screw machine shop where we ground on a daily basis a fair amount of drills , cutters ete.
Some men , after 10 yrs. could NOT properly thin out a drill or grind a cut-off blade. Did these tools work?
Only sometimes and they caused many costly "wrecks" on a daily basis. They had the best old timers to teach them but they just couldn't cut the mustard so to speak.Some of / alot of these guys were my friends and believe me I ground many drill sets, cut-offs, round tools for these guys because it came " naturally" to me.
I drive a car and I consider myself a cut above alot of whom I see on the road everyday, I learned this from my father, could I be a race car driver? Ha, Ha, doubt it, couldn't do one lap.
Guess what I'm trying to say is I admire the old timers because they didn't have all the modern tools / magnification. They either learned the hard way as i suspect Marcus did , or they washed out.
In anything one does I believe a good foundation on the basis premise is paramount and is evident in good work. I believe it should come first before so as not to put the cart before the horse.
Btw, at a local gunshop the other day I saw up close & personal an E.C. Prudhomme engraved Colt. Dont believe it was touched since it left his hands. It had full coverage and was a joy to look at. Almost akin to a religious experience.
Bet you could run a ladys stocking over it & not get a snag.
best regards to all,
Kent

 

[Cody]

Now I say "tooting and tootling" because that's exactly what it was....no rhythm, and no particular meter or tempo. In fact we all thought they were tuning up!

Yup. sounds like jazz all right . As Frank Zappa once said, "jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny".

Cody

 

[Marcus Hunt]

I couldn't agree with you more Ray. As I've said before 'Rules' is probably the wrong word and 'Guidelines' a better one but its just semantics. You are right, when trying to develop new patterns and styles to slavishly follow the 'rules/guidelines' will hinder any development and growth. But the student and indeed the experienced engraver still needs to understand as you put it 'the principals and elemements of design' (I would say 'principals and elements of good design') in order to produce something aesthetically pleasing. But once these principals are understood the world is your oyster and you are no longer bound by 'rules and guidelines' but aesthetics. I too have seen artwork that is anatomically incorrect but it works because the artist has understood these principals.

However, my wife pointed something out to me the other day in a magazine; it was a picture of a model in a perfume ad and she was either a) deformed in a hideous way or b) the designer had gotten too clever in Photoshop and moved her shoulder to such an extent that if she stood normallyone shoulder would be twice the length of the other! Did it work, well yes....until this was spotted and then it just looked like an abismal attempt at photo-manipulation.

 

[Cody]

Ed, you can avoid throwing up a rough edge by making certain that your tools are sharp and set up in such a way that it feels as if you are cutting butter.

When I use a 120, it cuts as if I'm cutting firm cheeze. However, any other graver, even a 110 just doesn't feel that way and doesn't cut as nice. Same graver steel, same heel, same face everything done the same only difference is the angle of the cut. Any thoughts as to what I'm doing wrong??

if you're not careful, get a rough edge. To avoid this a) use a relief grind (nb, this was around long before the Patent Point but if you find SL's grind works then use it) to avoid heel drag and, b) polish the heel and face of the graver.

I don't get the patent point. When I take a square and make something else out of it IE 120 or 110 etc, it looks like the picture of the patent point. That's just how it comes out. How do you make a 110 out of a 90 without haveing what is refered to in the lindsay PP as a long secondary heel effect?. I'ld like to try a PP but don't understand it. I already use a uniform heel. What does a "relief grind" look like and how is it accomplished?.

Cody

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Cody, my advice is please use what works for you and don't get hung up on geometry. If a 120 works for you then why bother with a 110? My father still sharpens by eye on a whetstone and I used to. I couldn't cut well with his tools and he sure as hell couldn't cut with mine! But we could both cut the same patterns and to the untrained eye (or even the trained one) you couldn't tell what each graver geometry was.

The relief grind is just that, a primary grind about 1/2 inch to and inch long and about 5 - 10 degrees wider than the parallel heel. My favourite at the moment is a primary grind of 35 degrees and a post height of 2.5 degrees, then a heel at 40 and a lift of 15. This gives a 100 degree heel and when combined with a tapered graver with a face of 1mm at the widest point it is fantastic for small an medium scroll as it doesn't break of as quickly as the Lindsay geometry. The Lindsay point is brilliant for soft metals like silver and nickel silver, and flat areas but it just can't cut the mustard on convex steel surfaces such as the knuckle, forend and fences on a shotgun action.
I hope this helps.

 

[Bama]

Marcus

Let me say thank you for contibutions to this site. As a beginner I have found this site very helpfull and have enjoyed your comments very much. Over the next few months I have several gun related projects to do and I hope that you will be here for me to ask questions to.

Thanks and may God Bless

 

[sam]

Marcus, you are a valuable asset to the Cafe, and we personally value your friendship and participation.
~Sam & Abigail

 

[monk]

i apologize for not knowing how to properly use the cafe format for e-mails, but. i thought it nice to tell you --in school-- there were 3 teachers that really made a lasting impression on me. woodshop, metalshop, and mechanical drawing. these people were more than teachers, they were people who had a passion for what they taught. if you had trouble, they would stay after school and help you to learn what you needed to pass a test, or just to learn how to do something not even related to the text work. i would say, sir- if you were (are } half the teacher these guys were, lots of people owe you a big bag of thanks !!

 

[Kerry Bogan]

Marcus
I read all your suggestions and observatons and save them to my Marcus Hunt file.
Thanks for taking the time.
Kerry

 

[Big-Un]

Your explanation of the "relief grind" leaves this ole country boy scratching his head. Could you draw what you are talking about so I can understand better?