Help, please: Trying to Find Traditional, Long Term Educational Opportunity

[Kensfla]

I don't think anyone owes me anything and I appreciate your clarification that the ONLY way I may be able to try to get into this is by traveling ACROSS THE COUNTRY for several weeks a year.
You made that simple.
A lot of the "experts" were condescending as if I asked for anything but advice IF THEY HAD IT.
If you don't have it, it's okay not to reply. Telling me about some classes that used to run in nineteen-dickety-doo and suggesting that because I am straightforward I'm being rude is misplaced pride.
If you asked me about any one of the things I am an expert in, I could immediately tell you where to get training, or that training is not publicly offered in your area.
In any case, I apologize if I didn't come off as friendly. I am friendly, I just don't want or need more friends. Came only for the specific information. Thanks for clarifying.

Here is an old thread from Steve Lindsay's site.

Looking for interesting hand engraver in NYC or NJ - Engraving Forum.com - The Internet's Largest and Fastest Growing Engraving Community

Looking for interesting hand engraver in NYC or NJ Who's Who - Hand Engraving Forum

www.engravingforum.com

The lady Julie who responded in that discussion was in the NYC/NJ area, and a quick Google search indicates she's still around despite the age of that post. Maybe it's a start for you in finding someone in that area. Good luck.

 

[mtlctr]

Some things are understood differently when typing, yet the way you type anything is by choice. You could have easily explained you looked into those classes and that they were no longer available.
These people are atisans...a different breed so to speak. I come from tattooing and to me, this world of engraving is extremely open to anyone willing to learn. Most occupations with any craftmanship envolved are very secretive. The willingness to share information about this craft is unique. Yet, those who have the knowledge to share, will always be those that need to be treated with respect. Like I said...typing doesn't always come across the way it was intended. As a schoolteacher, I would think you would know that. Saying things as nineteen-dickety-doo comes across as being offended. These people give you what they know...they will not check for you if the classes are still being taught.

Like I said...I am in The Netherlands. No more schools here. The few that still engrave here offer mostly a fun day for bachelor parties and such. I would have loved to have been in your shoes, where in the US there are far more places to turn. Getting setup is wayyyyy cheaper there.... Soooo many advantages.

If all you can find is slightly or even way further than you would like, sadly, so be it. Even then I would trade places with you...today

i agree, his comments are supercilious, snotty. Especially from a rank less than amateur.

 

[ElementalBreakdown]

I did explain the classes were no longer available, several times... You hit the nail on the head with the idea that lots of hobbies have people that truly don't WANT new people around... That would apply for me and mushroom hunting lol...
But when someone comes to me ASAP for knife sharpening or bowhunting training I stand over their shoulder and guide their progress, as any good teacher does. I call them when I see interest waning to remind them that I said it wasn't going to be easy. I give them old tools and show them how to make new ones. Plenty of those people were strangers referred to me by the professional or centralized governing body of the organization. I don't look at it like it's taking customers away from me, it's the right thing to.... In fact the ONLY thing to do when you have reached a certain level, to foster that community.
Thanks to those here who embodied those ideals. To the rest, I am sorry to appear rude that I am not interested in discussion that deviates and is tangential to my goal as a beginner.
In my school, the beginner is the most important person, not the master.

 

[Pollum]

Tiffany Careers

Take your career to new heights with Tiffany & Co.

www.tiffanycareers.com

 

[ElementalBreakdown]

Incredibly kind of you to remember to share this with me. I'm contacting them on Monday for guidance on what kind of experience they'd consider the most likely to stand out from among applicants.
The time frame is just about right too, I have about 3 years left of teaching to find opportunities to gain the required 3 years necessary to apply. Thank you!

 

[ElementalBreakdown]

Apologies! Xeno I thought this was the thread I started.
Pm me if you have had any new thoughts on approaches. If you happen to consider this opportunity, let me know if you can think of any reasons why I shouldn't call with the questions I mentioned.

 

[mdengraver]

I imagine that would not be a living wage. in Queens, NY., given the high cost of living there. If you could swing it, it would be a great opportunity! I knew an engraver who was trained at Tiffany's, who passed away a few years ago. He was an excellent engraver.

 

[Meshach]

dear moderator who will review this message, the content of my message no longer seems as relevant to this thread as it did lastnight before the progress in the topic and I would prefer this post just be deleted rather then posted but I don't know how to delete a pending post (other then editing the content obviously and creating a blank post seems a poor way to start on this forum..)

I'm no pro, I have only started drawing scroll designs about 2 years ago and I have spent nowhere near the 5 times a week that you have spent. but If I may advise, I would suggest that you watch some of the videos that have been uploaded to youtube in the past couple years by Ken C Hunt. my scroll work improved greatly in the past 9 months or so since I found his videos and I would certainly credit a portion of that growth to them.

 

[ElementalBreakdown]

I will add that it most certainly is not even close to a living wage. Fast food pays $16 in the city. It's an opportunity for someone like me that would be collecting social security and a pension with a commute to Jersey. Last time I took the family to Madison Square Garden, a slice of pizza was $9 and a beer was $14. I would imagine there's some commitment of time once you are trained too, and their average salary once fully trained is less than $79,000. On top of that, I would imagine the scope of themes and artwork you'd be tasked with would be limited, but that last part is just a guess. But after 5 years, what a great credential to have!

 

[mdengraver]

They probably want a younger person they can train and groom with a strong artistic aptitude. Those positions are highly coveted, a lot of competition.

 

[Xenophon]

They probably want a younger person they can train and groom with a strong artistic aptitude. Those positions are highly coveted, a lot of competition.

I don't get why it would be so coveted. Is this some kind of door into the industry at large? It is asking for three years experience, as an entry level and less than livable wage job. I don't get it. I was told Tiffany pays $9+ mil in work comp claims too, who would take this?

Apologies! Xeno I thought this was the thread I started.
Pm me if you have had any new thoughts on approaches. If you happen to consider this opportunity, let me know if you can think of any reasons why I shouldn't call with the questions I mentioned.

No problem bro. I wouldn't touch this offer with a ten foot pole honestly. I am sick and tired of the American way of doing things. I have made contacts in Europe who are much friendly, way more helpful, and way more punctual with their responses. Things may work out in such a way that I can be paid to go to school over there. LOL. Or I could go to the Tiffany blood engraving mine in NYC, and wade through the competition to get an underpaying entry level position. I don't get how we are still the most powerful country in the world with this kind of crap going on.

Here is as an update for the thread for those interested:

I made contact with the German school posted before. They seem to respond only in German, so it is a little tricky trying to get the right translation for what they are saying. Apparently the only upfront major fee is 800 dollars- and that covers tools which I would be able to use afterwards. Tuition from what I can tell is covered by the German state. Room and board is not included, of course, but would appear to be offered on the side through the school. The German government also offers financial aid under a specific article which I will post later as I research more. The apprenticeship system in Germany is called 'Ausbildung', it is 50% class room and 50% hands on- in most cases. German speaking of a B-1 level is the baseline requirement, though one of my contacts have indicated that there have been foreign nationals from Qatar and the Arab league who have gone there for specific certifications with minimal or no German. It was added later that these individuals already largely knew what they were doing and didn't really need the course. They were ostensibly going for accreditation.

The Belgian school is having server and phone difficulties. I have not heard back from them after sending out multiple emails to the list of directors. I reached out to them on instagram where I was told by the keeper of the account that he was on vacation and he was going to get back to me "soon". Yeah, we will see about that. I plan on pestering him again in two days.

On the Italian front I have recruited two contacts to help me out. One is my cousin who is an Italian national and knows someone with an Italian jewelry store who was trained in Italy. She is going to find out the details of Italian vocational school for me and what is on offer. I have another contact from Cesare Giovanelli looking for apprenticeships over there.

I reason if Germany has good programs, that the Swiss might also have pretty good ones as well- maybe in English. I will check as soon as this post is made and report back later.

Three other countries may be interesting as well- England, Spain, and Portugal. England has had a recent trade/skilled trade renaissance and is trying to push more people into the trades overall. I have yet to find an internationally available engraving opportunity. One contact I made claimed that Sheffield was a good spot for crafts but still I am coming up empty in my searches. Spain and Portugal are both 'Hail Mary's' so to speak. I have more knowledge of Spanish and Portuguese than I do German or Italian. It stands to reason that if I speak more of the language it may be a better fit. Also I may be eligible for Portuguese citizenship in the near future due to the ancestry program. EU citizenship may open a windfall of opportunities to work and study abroad.

I am looking for the best opportunity while I work on getting my passport. If I can get paid to study and get work experience I absolutely will. I have been working on my spirals for scrolls- I plan to get some graph paper so I can check their consistency and concentritude (is that a word?)

Thank you to Pollum and Kensfla for posting potential leads. Anyone with leads is welcome to post more, whether they are domestic or abroad. Honestly it would seem that America has no interest in keeping the skilled trades alive like other countries. I feel as if I have been lied to about education all my life. These other countries are giving better education for cheaper prices. I would be lying if I said that I wasn't more than a little angry. The direction of this thread has changed a bit. I want this to be a resource for others in the future who are in the same boat I am in as well as an avenue of informational exchange.

I will update the thread with developments and links as I go.

God speed for now, everyone.

 

[Rannis]

OK Elementalbreakdown, please take a knee and drink water. (That means take a minute and understand what is being said) I understand your question and concern as someone just getting started in this field. I would ask that you take the advice given to you to heart. Having trained under some proffesionals in this trade I would ask you to not disrespect them. As a gunsmith who has had to learn through the school of hard-knocks due to a lack of true apprenticeship pathway, engraving, I have learned, follows the same path. If you are too inpatient to follow the advice of those here, which includes some "tough love" then I dont think this is a field for you.
Im not trying to be disrespectfull, but if you are beligerant towards those who have 'paid their dues" so to speak, then perhaps a field a little less challenging to learn would be in order. Otherwise, please pay attention to what they say.
You are an educated person, please listen to those who have gone before US (me included) and try to grasp what they are saying.
As for me. There is no-one in my immediate area to train under. I find classes and piece them together through out the year, and PRACTICE, PRACTICE, Practice, between. This is the best you can hope for , per my understanding of someone who is 52 with a large family, a narrow schedule and a deep desire to learn this craft.
Kicking up a tussle on here serves no purpose except to waste alot of peoples time.

 

[mdengraver]

It is very hard to earn a living as an engraver, there is a steep learning curve. You have to pay your dues and put in your time. It is quite labor intensive. Hand engravers have spent many years honing their craft to do quality work and to attain proficiency. Difficult, quality jobs even for the most accomplished hand engravers, can take a lot of time to complete. You will need another source of income to attain your longterm plans. The other alternative is to startoff engraving as a passionate hobby in your spare time, like many of us do to develop our skills incrementally. Many of the older engravers are retired now, and have another source of income. This is the reality you need to accept and proceed accordingly! There is no substitute for time, experience, dedication, perseverance, discipline, and a driving passion, and a longterm vision. It will not be easy. Once you accept these obstacles, you will be on your way in the distant future to achieve success and the satisfaction that comes from the many years of struggle and single-minded commitment that is required. The masters didn't become masters overnight! There is no halfway approach to accomplish this, 110 percent of your efforts must be channeled to move forward slowly and deliberately, to acquire your specialized skillset, with a lot of sacrifices that must be made along the way! If quality hand engraving was easy more people would be doing it! There are many things a responsible person with daily time constraints must complete! The challenge is making the time to hand-engrave regularly to practice, practice, practice, to suddenly realize the graver control improving enough to have confidence, slight of hand, and visual and design acuity, and layout and well-executed composition of the projects you choose to pursue.

 

[mtlctr]

And…….what do you intend to engrave? I started cuz I wanted to embellish flintlock rifles I built ( another highly skilled craft in itself). A lot of borders and lines etc.
or……guns/ knives? It takes Years of practice to be able/ skilled to set a chisel to a gun or knife let alone the customer willing to allow you to do it. My work on lighters, hair barrettes, pendants pales in comparison to what accomplished engravers do.
this (engraving) ain’t like sharpening a knife or bow hunting not even close. like I opined before I think you’re barking up the wrong tree.

 

[pierre]

Hello, Xenophon, I am a weapons engraving teacher at the Liège Léon Mignon school.
The registration fees are 90 euros per year Unfortunately you are not part of the European Union and you will have to pay a state fee of around 800 euros per year of study.
The courses are given over 2 compulsory years and a third optional.
Most of the material is provided.
The technique learned is that of the hammer chisel and the graver.
We do not use pneumatic tools except in the third year where there is an initiation with my pneumatic stalls that I make available to the students.
normally the courses are distributed as follows
11 hours of practice per week (but the teachers present arrange to welcome you when you don't have class, this will allow you to do about 30 to 35 hours)
There are 4 hours of drawing per week but again, there is a way to do more at school but you will have to work a lot at home too.
I speak English so at first we manage, not really need to speak French.
You also have to find accommodation and food.
The class is quite heterogeneous, we have students from 16 to 40 years old and sometimes more.

 

[ElementalBreakdown]

I'm not hot under the collar, and I would hope no one has a big enough ego to let a truly random newcomer fluster them just by being direct and without dramatic "cow tailing" flourishes. The point I think that was missed is not everyone can start to learn just by watching.
I reviewed the sticky FAQs and used the search function but still was wondering about a few specific pieces of starting equipment. Before I start a new thread, the topic I would like to bring up is about vises for use with a stereoscope. In the last 3-4 years, China has become exponentially proficient at producing quality machined goods. Has anyone made a thread about the latest generation of vises that don't cost upwards of $1000? Just 3 years ago I would not have bothered, but across many fields it's astonishing how good things have gotten. Of course the garbage hasn't disappeared, but it's now possible that there could be something quite good.
In any event, this is not about making a living, besides a pension I have other incomes for a comfortable retirement so I can afford to learn at my own pace.

If anyone knows of a good vise that's come out in the past few years please share what you know!
Thanks!

 

[Xenophon]

Hello, Xenophon, I am a weapons engraving teacher at the Liège Léon Mignon school.
The registration fees are 90 euros per year Unfortunately you are not part of the European Union and you will have to pay a state fee of around 800 euros per year of study.
The courses are given over 2 compulsory years and a third optional.
Most of the material is provided.
The technique learned is that of the hammer chisel and the graver.
We do not use pneumatic tools except in the third year where there is an initiation with my pneumatic stalls that I make available to the students.
normally the courses are distributed as follows
11 hours of practice per week (but the teachers present arrange to welcome you when you don't have class, this will allow you to do about 30 to 35 hours)
There are 4 hours of drawing per week but again, there is a way to do more at school but you will have to work a lot at home too.
I speak English so at first we manage, not really need to speak French.
You also have to find accommodation and food.
The class is quite heterogeneous, we have students from 16 to 40 years old and sometimes more.

Thank you very much, sir, for responding to this thread. I was unaware that the bat signal made it out there!

Apologies for the delayed response, but I have been without much computer access these past few months. I wanted to ask you about the acceptance process. Is there anything I should know or prepare for outside of the usual application and passport procedures? Do I need a CV? How competitive is it to get into the class?

I would like to thank you again for responding to this thread. I am very serious about pursuing an opportunity out there. May I ask that you PM me your email? My access to the forums is limited to when I have a keyboard but emailing on the phone is definitely easier.

 

[pierre]

Hello Xenophon, i just read your message my email is dome-pierre@hotmail.com