Help, please: welding/welder advise.

[Ray Cover]

This may be a bit OT but as it pertains to gun work and jig making I'm going to ask.

I am a fair machinist but I have never learned to weld. I have several projects ahead of various sizes that are going to require welding. Rather than outsourcing all this I am considering buying a welder and learning to weld myself.

I am looking into the three in one machines with a 50 amp plasma cutter and 200 amp tig and arc welder in one machine.

I can't afford a Lincoln or Miller right now. Here are the brands I can afford.
UNT
Simadre
Lotos

Do any of you have any advise as to which of those are better quality?

Thanks,

Ray

 

[jerrywh]

In my opinion you are making a big mistake in buying the cheaper machine. I have a lincoln and it is one of the best investments I ever bought. There is a world of difference. Cheap tools NEVER pay off.

 

[Brian Hochstrat]

I would second that, welders are the same as any other tool, you get what you pay for. TIG welders seem to be a bit more pricey than the MIG, so if you can't swing the investment of the TIG the MIG may be a good alternative for now. For light weight stuff I have a small Lincoln MIG that runs off 110v and runs an argon mix shielding gas, I think it cost around $500. It works pretty good, but if you are wanting to weld heavier material, you need more amperage and that starts getting into bigger dollars.

 

[griff silver]

If your just welding the jigs, your probly fine, but a mig welder is of little use with anything small (machined parts). If thats the project I would look into an econtig welder by miller, you can find them on ebay, If your planning on welding to guns at any point Im afraid your going to need a high frequency machine which mean more dollars.

 

[bjiantonio]

The 110 mig welders that use flux wire are the cheapest migs to use. But if you want to weld aluminum you can get an attachment to go on a mig that uses gas. You will nned to use argon for aluminum and a regular mig mix for steel. Cheap tigs are all right for steel but you can't do fine work with one. If you are going to fill pits in an action or you want to build a sharpe up a radiused edge you need good control. You don't get that with a cheap tig. Tigs that go from 10 amps to 250 amps cost thousands of dollars new. Look for machine auctions and find a used one.

 

[Glenn]

If you have never welded before the mig is by far easier to learn how to use. Go to your local miller dealer and see if they have a repaired, good used from a previous trade in or a rebuilt 200 amp mig. I have several in my shop and they seem to last forever. New I think they run about $1300. Used would be half that.
Remember what Marcus Hunt preaches "Long after the price is forgotten the quality remains". Wait a minute, I think many of us say that. Good Luck

 

[Ray Cover]

Thanks guys,

I found a Century/Lincoln K2790 tig package on ebay for $598 shipped.
It looks this would work off my household 220 in my garage. It is in the same price range as the other machines just doesn't have the plasma cutter. Would that be a better option?

I am looking for the tig welder mostly. I would be doing gunsmithing type projects and restoration type projects with it most. Filling in bad rust pits, dents and dings or filling in machined dovetails or screw holes are what it would spend most of its life doing. I would have the occasional welding job on angle iron that I would use the arc welder for.

Not sure I understand the high frequency thing. This welding is fairly new to me but I am fairly sure a mig welder is not what I need for the intended projects based on conversations with various folks. If I am going to need a $4,000 welder to what I want to do I am just going to have to wait.

Ray

 

[hybridfiat]

Very low amps used in spot welding of thin or delicate materials need something to enable an arc to develop between electrode and the work.
The frequency of the mains electricity is 'stepped up' by the MIG or TIG welder from 50 cycles per second to several million. Now very low amperages will arc and the job is kept cooler except where you want the bead of weld and very thin electrodes/wire can be used .

 

[monk]

well, you seldom ever hear of a 5 hundred dollar horse winning the tripple crown. it's the same with the welding game . i own mig, tig & stick. they each have a place for certain work. i'd hesitate on any (3-in-1 ) rig, unless it was a really first class machine. and i never heard of such an animal anyway.

 

[lesholmes]

Ray,

I recomend you continue outsourcing the welding. You will save money that way.

The only way that you will enhance your life is if you really want to weld.

Your engraving is too good to waste time on welding.

Regards,

Les

 

[Ray Cover]

Les, there is something to be said for that and I understand your point.

However, for me personally I don't think that way. If I had listened to that line of reasoning I would have never become an engraver. I can remember when I started thinking about metal engraving there were a lot of voices saying,"You're too good at scrimshaw to mess with engraving metal".

Part of what makes me tick is always learning something new, adding a new skill, or a new technique. When I get stale and in a rut, I get burned out and don't want to engrave at all.

Then there is also the factor of getting it through the welder's head EXACTLY what you want. Most of my local guys can handle sticking two pieces of angle iron together but when it comes to filling the pits on a would be nice gun so it can be engraved or filling the dings on an antique lathe bed that you are restoring, they don't get it. By time I explained it to them to the point of comprehension I could have the gun engraved or the machine restored. Their good enough is not my good enough. When dealing with custom work or artwork, it comes down to that old saying. If you want it done right ............do it yourself.

There is also the self satisfaction factor. Even if it cost me twenty times as much there is a satisfaction to knowing I did it myself. While money is always something to consider, and I am on a budget with this, money is not always the bottom line. Even if I have to save a while longer and hunt for used equipment, I would really rather do it myself.

Ray

 

[hybridfiat]

Welding skills using MIGs and stick welders are far easier to pick up quickly.
Auto repairers are often good at TIG welding over here as they have to deal with very thin sheet metal. Id talk to a repairer for hints and tips on how to use a TIG. They are not as easy as they look to use well.

 

[Peter E]

One other possibility to determine what equipment works best for you may be a class. Around here, "continuing education" at some local schools offer various welding classes. You may be able to try some equipment and the instructor should be able to provide some good information.

 

[bjiantonio]

Learning to TIG weld will cost a lot of time and $$$ filling in pit is not as easy as it sounds. Rust pits hold oxygen and out gas when heated ruining the weld. Threaded holes are the hardest to weld in. I drill out the threads and put in solid plugs because you can never clean threads good enough to pevent out gasing.
Outsoursing is still the best way to go.

 

[SamW]

If you have a quality welder nearby you can have do your jobs I then agree with Les. I have gotten to where I can do some fair welding with my mig but it has taken years and with engraving and other aspects of daily life getting in the way learning to weld is like learning H & C, it takes a long time to get profficient, not to mention expensive. Either way you will need to figure out what filler wire will match with the intended finish. Rust bluing or plateing see to work just fine but hot dip blue will likely make the weld area show without the right filler. Another suggestion is for you to talk with some of the metalsmiths in the ACGG who do such welding and can give you much needed advice.

 

[jerrywh]

A tig welder is the best way to go for gunwork but everything Sam says is true , I can vouch for that. There is a lot more to consider than just the welding part when it comes to guns. The weld will also show up if you heat blue or niter blue. Browning and rust bluing is about the only thing that will cover it besides plating. Even if you case harden it will usually show a weld if you look for it. That is my experience. I have been using a tig for about 12 years. I have had a mig for 30 years. I don't find much use for the mig on gun stuff. It takes a lot of practice and learning to fill pits or screw holes even with a tig welder. If you buy a tig you need one with a high frequency starter for gun work. you will also need some instruction from a expert in spite of all the books. Books just don't have all the info a experienced welder knows.

 

[C.H. Rasmussen]

Ray,

I have been reading some of the posts concerning welding processes/ machines. I may be able to help with some information. First, a little about me: My real training in welding took place in the late 60's at the Navy's nuclear pipe welding school in Groton, Ct. In my opinion I got the best training available anywhere in the world. Every aspect of the program focused on perfection from preparation through final x-ray. We used two processes TIG (GTAW) and Stick (SMAW). I later went on into engineering (metallurgical/welding), so, you could say that my life has been pretty much steeped in metals and joining them. I'm telling you all of this so that you know my opinions are based on some experience.
First, the field of welding is vast and there is as much or more snake oil available here as anywhere.
Second, I think we can narrow your requirements down to TIG and Stick if I understood your posts correctly (look for a spoiler at the end of my post).
Third, I think that it is critical to try out the machine you are considering before you hand over any money. Any welding supply house worth its salt will set up the machine of your choice in the back room. Alternately, community colleges or some high schools may let you try out a machine; especially if your enrolled in a welding class! If you are going to be filling pits on guns and welding machine parts then you are going to need a very stable power supply (welding machine) that can provide a stable arc at very low amperages (say 10 amps and less) as well as at higher amperages. You can only judge this by trying the machine at its limits... you can't do that on ebay.
As far as as Mig goes, well, what can I say. They are not called manure spreaders for nothing. But, look what you get! A nice package with a spool of shiny wire on it, a welding gun with a real trigger on it and tips that you have to replace often, and last-but-not-least a red digital readout that, that, well nobody really knows what they do but they are very high tech looking. Sorry for my outburst, Ray, I'll get back on track now.
Seriously, I don't see Mig as an option for you in gun or machine tool work because the precision is not there. If your filling a pit on a firearm you need precision positioning and control for your arc at the very beginning. What you don't want is to have to drag the arc across the workpiece while looking for the pit through a dark lens. Tig is really the only answer (and Stick for your structural steel work.)
Ray, I could go on for many hours, but, I'm doing my best to keep this short.

So, to sum up, I think that:

you need a Tig machine because of its precision and controllability (Stick will be included).

you need a very stable power supply (sorry, but this means money); digital readouts and fancy controls are unnecessary. Correct settings are always found on a trial piece. And you need a supplier/manufacturer that you can rely on.

you must develop a culture of cleanliness and preparation for Tig, it will not tolerate contamination (rust, liquids, dirt, oil, etc... all must be removed).

your an engraver so you already have steady hands, but, when welding, get comfortable with your hand braced on something solid.

remember that welding will generally destroy any heat treatment in the area, this could be critical for gun work.

community colleges will have welding programs - take advantage of these.

And now the spoiler! Don't automatically discount oxy-acetylene. Precision work can be done with this tool. Why isn't it promoted more? Because manufactures can't make money selling you one thing that will last your lifetime unlike the ubiquitous Mig machine.
I use my oxy-acet setup more than my Tig/Stick machine! There are reprints of many books from the heyday of oxy-acet aircraft welding. They are very valuable.

High Frequency
High Frequency current is applied to the tig torch during the start phase so that you don't have to scratch start the arc. The high frequency current easily jumps the gap and establishes the arc at which time it then shuts off. This helps keep your tungsten clean and pointed and prevents tungsten contamination of the weld (of course there is more to it).


Ray, My post is a little rambling and I hope that I have not confused you, I would be happy to answer any questions if I can. I looked at the machines that you had listed, all made overseas I suppose. I get a very uneasy feeling about them. The look of quality is not there and warranty work and parts would be anybody's guess. The subject of welding is complex and selecting a machine is never easy. TAKE YOUR TIME. Everything about quality electric welding is expensive, it just is.

Best Regards, Craig

 

[Ray Cover]

Thanks Craig,

I pretty much got the same advise e on all the forums I ask on.

I have pretty much narrowed my search down to either a Miller Maxstar or its Lincoln equivalent.

Ray

 

[ED DELORGE]

Hello Ray, after reading all of the posts above I have to say l love to weld. I had already learned to torch weld before I entered Gunsmith school back in 1980. But they did not teach us how to tig. After finishing school a cousin showed me his new miller welding machine and demonstrated. That was it I had never seen anything so sweet. I bought an old lencon 250 ac/dc a tig torch, argon bottle, flow regulator and using D.C. and away we go. It took a lot of practice, later I bought a miller tig machine used for $800.00. I would hate to think that after 30 years I would still have to be looking for someone to weld things up for me.

Good luck

Ed

 

[ED DELORGE]

Ray, one more thought, you can do some great tig welding with a D.C. welding machine and a tig torch. I weld my 3/4 inch bandsaw blades together with my tig.

Ed