western engraving

[Ray Cover]

Sam you are very close to what I found.

The shading on my mystery buckle is very like what you have pictured above. The only diference I can tell without a side by side comparison is that the buckle I saw did havve wriggled spines. But the treatment of the leaf structures and flowers looked like you pic.

If anyone can post a pic of this flutter tool and give a geometry it would be greatly appreciated.

Ray

 

[bitmaker]

I don't have a picture of mine, bot it is simple. It is a wide graver maybe 1/4" wide with a pretty good radius. You hold it upright And walk it, almost like a wriggle. Jerimia Watt calls it a flower walking tool. It's real easy to use, and fast.
Jim

 

[smays]

I find it very humbling that an engraver like yourself, Ray still asks for input on engraving. To look at your work and see what you have done in the past, I would think someone with your years of experience would be able to create a masterpiece of anykind from memory! I dont know how that came across... but I didnt mean it in a bad way. But I know from reading this forum, when people do a skill for many years like you guys, you tend to pick up on certain key things that will take a guy like me years to see. I'm sure if you cut it in a piece of cardboard, it would look good!!

Shawn

 

[Ray Cover]

Shawn,

The thing we all need to keep in mind is that none of us knows it all.

Find me a man who claims to be an expert at every genre and technique of engraving and I will show you a man who is either self deceived or a bold faced liar. No matter how much you know and how practiced you are there is always more to learn and accomplish.

There is just too much of it for any of us to have a firm grip on all of it.

Ray

 

[Mike Cirelli]

Ray I disagree with you my wife tells me I know everything Funny though she only tells me that when she's mad at me

 

[Marcus Hunt]

I agree with Ray, I doubt very much there's anyone that knows it all. I know next to nothing about Western engraving and this thread has fired a desire in me to learn more about it. Can someone please post some photos of this flutter tool and maybe some of how it's used? I'm getting confused now as to where the radius is and how it's 'walked' as it's working.

Occassionally (especially when doing restoration stuff) I go back to a push graver and use a technique that's fast. It's called back shading and involves moving the graver back and forth rapidly in an arc almost rocking it on the heel. You need a fairly longish and quite wide heel as it's this and not the point of the tool that does the shading and the result is very fine shading lines. It's a fast commercial technique and when it's done well looks quite good. Is this a similar technique to the one used here?

By the way, when I got married last year I knew I'd married Mrs Right........little did I know her first name was Always!

 

[sam]

Marcus: I believe the flutter tool is 'rocked' and not 'walked' like wriggling. Sounds like you might be a flutterer and didn't know it!

I wish Diane Scalese would log on and help with the flutter discussion.

~Sam

 

[Marcus Hunt]

oooooo errrrr!

 

[Mike Bissell]

To those interested in Western Bright Cut engraving I've attached two sections cropped from Diane Scalese's sample casting which is available from FEGA. I do remember that the tools she uses are sharped different from what I consider normal. Some have a curved cutting edge. I believe the liner that she uses also has a radius cutting edge. Now that I've shown the world how little I remembered from the seminar, I'll go watch the video.

Mike

 

[Mike Cirelli]

I think this is what your talking about a (flutter tool or flower walker). The slower you move it the finer the lines it will make. Mine is a little small for the flower I posted, should be larger for larger flowers.

Mike

 

[sam]

Looks like what I remember as a flutter tool, Mike C.

The second example of Mike B's post shows a fluttered flower by Diane. IMO, Diane is by far, one of fastest flower flutterers in her field. She frequently flutters fantastic flowers when she feels like it.

 

[Darren]

What on earth is a 'flutter tool' Sam? Sounds like something used in a porn movie!

LOL I about fell on the floor laughing Marcus!!! Thanks for the good laugh.
I can't believe Diane is using this term, when we where telling her how to
shade the flowers we jokingly called it a flutter tool. Oh well I guess it fits.
But we really call it a flower wriggler or flower detail tool.
The picture of the buckle Sam posted is a mess produced buckle.
I engraved the master back in 86 or 87. I had been working for Skyline Silversmiths
A few months before and was still engraving with out wriggling the scrolls, that was Skylines way
to distinguish themselves from Gist. That buckle is not a good representation of my work. YUK
I hope I have come a long ways since then. The flower on that buckle was shaded using a square graver
one line at a time, the fine shading of the "flutter tool" won't hold up in a die and is to light to go through
the plating process with out getting washed out.
The "Flutter tool" can be wriggled or rocked depending on your preference.
Mike shows a god example of the graver, mine is not as curved. Make one large enough to shade
the largest flower you will engrave and that will cover all the sizes you engrave.
As much as I would like to jump on here and tell you all everthing I know about western engraving I can't
for now.

 

[sam]

Darren: Thanks for your explanation and for clearning up some of the mystery.
Do you know much about the die process of reproducing western engraving? I've always been intrigued with that, since I've seen some amazing examples that were hard to detect from an actual engraved piece.

Your work is absolutely beautiful.